009 - Connecting The Dots
You can’t connect the dots moving forward – you can only connect them looking backwards.
During my corporate career, that used to be something I excelled at. Identifying patterns, monitoring their development and tracking where things might lead has always been a strength of mine.
Yet lately, this has been a struggle. It takes a lot of mental energy and a firm desire for control to try to connect the dots we haven’t reached yet – and leaves little room for wonder, surprise or those little synchronicities of life.
In our last few episodes, we’ve spoken a lot about the active process of surrendering inner resistance and going where the flow of life takes us. It’s this fiercely personal endeavor that I’ll be exploring today with the help of recent guest and master facilitator, Aaron Kahlow.
In This Episode
(02:51) How do we pay attention to our journey without expecting certain outcomes?
(09:57) Does time matter in spiritual development?
(14:09) The gift of self-expression and the danger of numbing out
(21:57) Finding balance between living in our truth while acknowledging daily obstacles
(25:52) How compartmentalization causes friction
(30:21) Why we fear honesty
(34:24) Expectations, blueprints and leaving room for mystery in life – responsibly
(42:04) Where are you on the certainty spectrum?
(47:20) Why men fear our own anger
(51:21) “Thank God for our emotions”
(56:16) Transcending and balancing the horizontal plane of the mind
(1:04:53) Can we really change?
Notable Quotes
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“I’m walking this edge that has excitement, as well as fear. It has a tremendous amount of uncertainty, and there’s also a certain amount of anticipation that’s coming along with it. There’s this part of me that knows, like something magical could be unfolding. And then there’s the other part of me that’s like, ‘You’re going to screw this all up, you have no idea where you’re going. You don’t have a plan for it. It’s not all thought out.’ That’s like the edge I wanna walk and I wanna be able to express from there. I wanna be able to own that place of vulnerability and just be honest with it.”
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“Our traumas inform so many things, right? That's the problem. We can't unlock those little micro or macro traumas and be clear and true and honest about it. The best thing that's happened to me [is being] honest about my deficiencies, microtraumas and things that are holding me back with my wife. That's where real unfolding happens. We can create and connect together where there's an understanding, there's a level of compassion, the battles end, the guards are down. The more I can keep expressing those things in a way that's tapped into my truth and my emotions, the better it [is]. … And man, there ain't no sex as good as that.”
Our Guest
Aaron Kahlow is an emotional wellbeing advocate, facilitator and leader committed to helping people create more meaningful human connection in our lives through authentic community building, shared learning, healing and personal growth experiences.
Resources & Links
On This Walk
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Luke (00:00:01):
Welcome to On This Walk, a show about the winding journey of life in all its realness. I'm Luke Iorio. Please join me and my brilliant heart centered guests each week, as we look to navigate this journey more consciously and authentically. Uncovering how to tap back into that sense of connection with self, with soul and with something bigger than ourselves. Now let's go on this walk.
For this walk, I'm inviting you into my process and experience, sort of a behind the scenes, as this was unfolding for me. After recording the first few episodes of On This Walk, I was already in this place of trying to figure it all out, trying to get a sense of where this might head. Steve Jobs, in one of his more famous commencement addresses had talked about this, that you can't connect the dots moving forward. You can only connect them looking backwards. And yet here I was right in the middle of this. I was trying to connect the dots and you see this itself has been a struggle for me in that I actually have been pretty darn good at doing this inside of my career. I've been very good at seeing what the patterns were, how they were developing, where things might be moving to, how things may well be unfolding.
And therefore, where do we wanna consider positioning ourselves? How do we wanna take advantage of this? And I was pretty accurate in doing this along the way, but I'm not there anymore. And by there, I mean that things aren't moving in the same logical, traditional let alone controlled fashion for me anymore. I've been surrendering that approach because it took too much control, too much mental energy to stay on top of it all. And it left no room for wonder, for delight, for surprises, for those synchronicities that bring you to places you never could have imagined. A few episodes ago, I quoted Michael Singer, the author of The Untethered Soul and The Surrender Experiment, about surrendering the inner resistance and seeing where the flow of life wishes to take you. Well through this podcast, I'm looking to willingly participate in life's dance with a quiet mind and an open heart as Singer also writes. Well, that's what I'm looking to do. However, I'm not always there. This is an active process. And with that, I wanna invite you in on this very personal conversation where our past guest and incredible facilitator, Aaron Kahlow, held space for me as I continue surrendering and trying to be with what this podcast journey is. And so with that, let's go on this walk.
So I sat down with Jason after coffee and he had this great reflection to me of how, even in the midst of these things that are moving through, I'm already trying to figure out like what's, like the finish line or the mile marker that I'm trying to get to? And so I was very aware of, that was a good reference for me of like, yeah, okay, that's popping back up again. This is only an example, but it was one of those things that was important for my brain was him even reflecting back to me that even these great thinkers that you have loved to read and follow through all the years and everything else, like how much of their work came from 7, 8, 9, 10 years of journaling? They didn't know what they were doing. They had no idea what they were creating and they just found a way of how do I just keep this going and unfolding? There's a part of me that logically knows I can't go into anything knowing the exact outcome of it, but it doesn't prevent parts of me that want that outcome anyway, right? That clarity. And, uh, and so anyway, that, that just gave me a, uh, oh, okay. There's a clarity of, of maybe the journey that this is and that I'm okay with that. Like, I'm, there's, there's a part of me that definitely settled into that of oh, all right. I'm, yeah, I could be okay with that. And then there's just, you know, there's many different manifestations that could come out of what this becomes that directly change the podcast that have me stop it and its tracks, or that just have me keep evolving it as I go. And, you know, the one thing I did reflect on which I, I am okay with is I'm good with the idea of learning in public.
If I'm off camera, maybe not like I start trying to plan and figure it all out and everything else, but I actually I'm really okay with the idea that so people see me change, actually, that's kind of a good part of the story to share. And like, even when those things happen, that I actually want that to be part of the conversation. Like, you know, I'll use the example just right now of what, what, where this stem from was if the way the podcast is coming out right now, even though I'm getting all this, you know, wonderful feedback of, of the, the small group that that's paying attention yet, if I decide, you know, what, those are gonna be the only eight, 10 shows that I do that way, and I'm gonna go in a different direction, then we'll maybe show 10, whatever it, you know, whatever it is, is a conversation around, I'm gonna actually take a little bit of a left turn in the way that I'm doing this and actually using that is part of conversation to be able to share that it's okay to evolve and you don't have to have it all figured out. And once you're into something, you can still make turns like you don't have to just stick with something because it's out there. And that is different for me.
Aaron (00:05:35):
Yeah. I got a couple of reflections for you. First thing that keeps hitting me is like, what you're talking about has nothing to do with the podcast. No, just the word.
Luke (00:05:47):
It's just the backdrop.
Aaron (00:05:48):
I just am comfortable with letting people see me unfold. Just that, you know, like that in life, and then if that's on a podcast, cos you're recording it, so be it and, and all the things and letting go of the outcomes, like yeah, the, it's amazing cos the spaciousness that I hear in your voice when that happens and I do hear that's whose mind needs some, some level of assurance and, and we need something to dig into, but I feel like almost nothing we've been talking about has anything to do with podcast. It just happened to be the thing that you're spending the most time on, but it's, it's the mirror, it's the mirror. That's really it.
Luke (00:06:27):
So if I use that just for a second, cause it absolutely is like the, it's the, the mirror at the moment, it's the window dressing to that, that just has me doing this. And I think it's what, you know, cos you, you obviously have been privy to this conversation for a long time of I've pivoted so deeply into my spiritual relationship in the last, you know, two, three years. And you know, that even took me like, well over a year, year and a half before almost anybody else besides Dawn knew anything about the depth that I was getting myself into. And it was like people know me a certain way and you know, that's where all of a sudden it's like, that's the rub. It's like, oh God, what are they gonna think? Are they gonna think I've lost it? Are they gonna think I've gone around the bend?
And then all of a sudden it was like, I started sharing more and more and more of, of the journeys that I've been up to. And they're like, tell me more cos we can see something's very different for you. We don't even really care what it is. Just tell us so that we can check it out. And that's what we're talking about, right? Is that edge of you feel like you've got so much of your energy moving and, and your identity moving in one direction and to make that change, even if it's a wanted or desired change, there's that period of time where you're just like totally boxed up bottled up. This came up in a, in a session the other night with the men's group, that, that, you're also a part of your own version of, one of the guys there was talking about somebody who'd been a very key influence on him. Somebody he had looked up to for, uh, quite a while as a, as a, a teacher and as he kind of followed the teacher through the years, it's been like 20 plus years since, since he'd been in that classroom, the teacher was actually in the process of owning the fact that they were trans and were in the process of coming out and is now actually written a book and, and just become a, kind of a, this wonderful voice for people that are going through that type of journey and individuals that find themselves in, in such a huge, literal transition, right? And there was just this, this beautiful reflection that she offered to the, the gentleman I was speaking to that we are all in some way, at some point facing that, those coming out of the closet moments. And you know, I, I know, I know of many other individuals who've spoken so beautifully about this. And, but that's what it feels like, right? Is that when you're making a change that seems so centered, it feels like you've been like, no, it's maybe I'll peek the door open. Like I'll, I'll look, right?
Aaron (00:09:07):
Thinking back here like, you know, the world for, for me, you know, so much has come up, uh, when you say that, so I'm gonna just share what's, what's happening on this side. First thing that, that was coming up was like, your journey is every person's journey and that's the reality, right? That's why people wanna hear it. Cause this is really, not every person, but every person in the scenarios you live in, modern day life, suburbia, business, all of that, right? So there's just like, that's just, that is just true. And you're just expressing it, which is awesome, right? They're not expressing it, they're, you know, and then the second thing that came up was just this notion of time. You know, I find myself like you, like talk about, I've spent this many years trying to figure this out and going deep. And it's just like, time is a, is just, you know, fucking illusion, excuse my, my front share, you know?
And so what is time when we're like tapping into our soul? Like it's, time is beginning and end, there is no such thing. And so I find myself, you know, thinking through like that lens of like, uh, you know, opportunity costs and some costs. And it's like, no, like no, like one moment of connection there. And then I'll just add one more piece to this and, and see where we need to go is gosh, for me, I can feel the emotions in my eyes now. So I'm just gonna share my experience with what you're experiencing, since I sold my company eight years ago and then never recovered any of that investment, it took me good seven years to stop start, starting with conscious companies, stop that didn't work, starting with, you know, mind, body stopping. You know, a lot of the stops were not because of my own volition, you know, cos others were seeing like this isn't working or the energy's not here or whatever, at seven years, I feel like I've been kind of pecking at that door of like coming in and then getting asked to be my former self, right? Be business. And you know, this conversation, value for your capacity to create and you know, drive and accountability. And there's not one ounce of me that wants to be that guy. And yet the world keeps asking. And so when I was hearing you talk about a year or two, I was like, God, you got off light, bro. I'm not trying to compare our situations, one of which, you know, and then guess what, six months later, I go right back at it, but I'm doing it differently because it's a different company or I'm more grounded now I'm more clear or holy shit, for what it's worth.
Luke (00:11:48):
Let me come back to what you said of my journey, similar to a lot of people right now and that I'm just expressing it. And then when you said they're not expressing it, I immediately started tearing up. I could feel it. And I can feel the pain of that because I know the pain of that, uh, intimately. And it's the dual part of my journey, meaning I no longer want to deny that part of who I am. I did that until it quite literally just dropped me into my knees after an experience with it in the mirror. And I've been trying to like honor getting back to that place, that place where you just honor the truth, the honesty, the, the vulnerability, the edge that you're walking at any given time. And so that's been my journey and I have so much raw energy and emotion for others that I know aren't expressing that. And I know it because, you know, I was even thinking about this weekend, right? We're coming up on a holiday weekend and I know that I'm gonna be at a, at a, a kind of a, a family friend, barbecue. And there's some guys there that, that, you know, are, I'm sure they love already poking, you know, poking fun at all the different things that I share while I'm on my walk, on my own, out in the woods and you know, all that stuff, they, they just get a kick out of, you know, how out there that seems to them and like, what are you doing? What are you talking about? What's this podcast, what, what's all this stuff, right? And the piece that hurts so deeply is that when their friends aren't looking, they're the ones that pull me aside and are saying that, how did you know about this? How did you know to go that way as opposed to this way? You know, I can't do that now. I'm too committed. I'm too obligated to this. I've got this I've gotta pay for and real shit. A lot is financial related. Some of it's healthcare related insurance related. So I mean, there's real shit that people, people can't just, you know, turn tail and run. But I think it just begins with being able to openly express that. And that's what I didn't do for so fucking long was I just, you know, I was a master, it just stuff it down.
Aaron (00:14:09):
I think that's the gift, right? That's when we, when you are able to express it, you give other people that permission to even explore that in themselves, whether they bring it up to you or not. And I think like half the world is ready to have that conversation. The other half is so afraid that they, their mind doesn't even let them contemplate it. They, right out of the gate, they just put you in a corner of like freak of the week and they go, and that's the saddest part is when they're not even willing, it's obviously much more painful when you're in the consideration process versus numbing out. I remember having conversation with my wife, like, let's just numb the fuck out and like accept the world as it is, you know? And so numbing out like TV, you know, whatever it is, you know, having a drink at night every night, that's a little bit more than we probably should, you know, distraction on social media, all of those things. Or like, let's just go all in because the in between is really painful. Cause you just get stretched and your soul gets like confined. So yeah, I'm just complimenting on the expression. Like that's the gift I think that everybody needs is to hear, express themselves.
Luke (00:15:12):
It's and it is that in between, right? It's the, I know I've binge watched the Netflix series. I've had the one too many drinks or the extra drink on a frequent occasion. I've done, you know, any number of things to keep me distracted and not all of them even unhealthy, right? So I, I've done some that have also been healthy of, uh, getting together with the guys to do some type of obstacle race, which brought us into connection and, and gave me something to shoot for and took care of my body. And like, you know, just using that as an example, but I wasn't doing it for the sake of connection. I was doing it for the sake of distraction at the time.
Aaron (00:15:47):
It, God, that's so, that's so spot on the intention behind it, right? Just to like fill the time, you know, get through the day, all of that. And like there's no judgment cos like I'm as guilty as you are with all of those things, for sure. And still when I'm saying this, I'm still not past it.
Luke (00:16:04):
Still working on times. Absolutely.
Aaron (00:16:05):
Still working on it. But the, that intention is so important and get clear on that. Even if your like, your intentions, I do just need to numb out right now and I'm clear and being okay with it and being aware and yeah, I just feel, yeah, there's something too that's happening in this conversation that ties back to different types of, you know, podcasts that can be out there to have the conversation that's real versus to have the conversation that is formulaic and putting some buffers and bringing it in. Like there is a need, like we do need to hear people like say things and inspire us and tell us like what's true, what's not. But I think right now people need more of just like hearing the truth and hearing the expression in somebody else's experience and being in that with them.
Luke (00:16:56):
I went out for a run this morning and as I was running, I, I was listening to a series that was recorded with Joanna Macy on The Work That Reconnects. And it's such a beautiful, simple structure and yet such incredibly powerful and deep work. Like I even thought of how these conversations could unfold in kind of that type of a fashion, meaning that it was not about bringing somebody on to teach something, but it was, hmm, hmm, maybe it's not about teaching. Maybe it's about inviting people on who have something they need to express and it's giving away to express it, giving them a, a space to do this.
Aaron (00:17:39):
Yeah. You know, cause I, I don't know about you, but I've heard everybody tell their really amazing story. And, and it, and it is definitely entertaining. And, but also, you know, a way to kind of get out of your own, but to hear people express what needs to be expressed feels really good. And I feel like just to be in expression with you right now feels good just to like name it. You know, some of it is philosophical and playing around up here and others, there's felt emotions and that's the game we play in life. You know, we can't stay in, in one versus the other when you're talking to somebody else. But yeah, I can feel my chest now too. Like just, just express it, let it go, take off the pressure to let off the steam of like all the things that you might have been considering or thinking about having space for that and whatever form it comes in, feels good. Can a podcast, if you even wanna limit it to calling it that, audio recording, be healing? And if so, what's the best way to do it? In my experience, I didn't have, I don't have this answer pre-conceived by the way, I'm just kind of following, finding and following the energy here. But from my experience, the best I could tell is watching somebody else or hear somebody else could see their healing.
Luke (00:18:47):
There is something very deep about that. I've, you know, I've, I've witnessed it. I think it's what, what we've both witnessed, experienced, right? In whether it's men's group's circle work, uh, even inside of, of, you know, journeys and, and certain type of retreat structures that are more communal, right? I think about, I'll use this as an example, right? Cos you and I both have shared this experience of being part of multiple fire ceremonies where people are surrendering something to the fire and they're surrendering probably more importantly, the story that's behind what it is, the, the, the energy behind what it is they're surrendering and then why, what's that doing for them? What's that opening up? What's being birthed? Uh, what's rising from the ashes, so to speak, right? And I can recount a lot of those stories because they left such an impression on me.
Maybe I went to that example for a reason because, you know, even when I, I have teed up guests to, to be on the show, I'm reminding them, you know, imagine it, it's just us sitting around the fire. There's something about that. And you know, and, and, and that's part of what I'm also trying to evolve is that it still easily falls back into the typical host mode podcast. And this is what I'm, I'm looking to evoke, to create that space, right? That gives somebody the opportunity to step forward, to express what they need to express in a manner that feels healing and holding to them. I don't know that we need a whole lot of dialogue otherwise beyond that, right? You don't, we don't have to dissect it. We don't have to let it just be what it is like, you know, the way in which, uh, I learned this through some of the courses I've taken in the last just year or two is to let the dream do its work on you.
You don't need to analyze it, just to retell it, just to be with the energy of it, let it work on you. And to me, hearing these stories works on you. I, I think of, I think a name, I think I've mentioned to you before, Geloy Concepcion started this incredible project that's on Instagram with individuals that are writing in about the things that they didn't say and the things that they haven't admitted, but they wanna admit. And obviously there's quite a bit of freedom in the anonymity of the way that that's done right now. And I think that's beautiful because he's created a beautiful space for people to do that. And we start healing in a very different way when we aren't anonymous.
Aaron (00:21:11):
Right. And maybe it's steps, right? You know, people come in anonymous, you know, it's probably why the confessional was so cool. Like you could basically be anonymous, say whatever you need to say, say you're terrible shit. Say your secrets. Like, ah, we, holding the secrets is gotta be one of the reasons cancer is so prevalent. Like people are holding this stuff in and their body's just like, no, get it out. You know, the two things that just came up, actually three, one is just what, with like using the podcast as the example, not the point, but if the podcast can be more aligned with the essence of life. The way energy flows in the way it flows out, comes in. Like that is something, man, that is something, that is something moving. It's like a fire ceremony. There's these, there's a movement and energy. There's a container, that container is allowing the fluidity to emerge, right? It's stoking. It's not being it. It reminds me too, and I feel like this is just a story worth sharing is I was on my men's call last night, two nights ago now. And I got to share this like thing that was blocking me, like where, this real, guttural need to be in that, I'm using that word harmony again that's why it came up, harmony with things. And like, I feel like life is all of these notes that are floating around and I just need in that to like, I just, that's all I wanna be, you know, planning the need for outcomes, the how close the aperture gets when I start thinking about outcomes. And there, you know, there's a certain amount of, you know, reality. Like when we gotta eat, we gotta go hunt, you know, like those things, but all the other stuff, like how can I be that and be in my truth around that need, without it creating friction, like you said, with other people passing judgment, or even in relationships.
Luke (00:23:04):
Before you talked about it as kind of living in between, and then what you just brought up with your own experience with the men's group was this edge and walking along this edge and is something that I also recognized. And truthfully enough, the other night in my own group work was that very often, and I'll, I'll use this present experience exactly as, as it's been unfolding, right? Is that when I begin to see something that maybe needs to change, needs to shift, needs to go left when I thought I was going right in my old patterns, start to come up where it's like, well, how do I plan for this? How do I count for this? Do I need to stop everything? Do I, did everything just go out the window? Do I need to, no, wait, I can make this work, right? And all this, just bullshit, right? Just starts plowing through because it's like, I need to put the, I need to put Humpty Dumpty back together again, really, really fast, right? And what I was able to acknowledge, or what I connected to is that I really actually just wanna walk that edge of the not knowing and the discomfort of it and owning the fact that there's, I've said this in, in, in messages to, to you of, right now, I'm walking this edge that has excitement, as well as fear. It has a tremendous amount of uncertainty. And there's also a certain amount of anticipation that's, that's coming along with it. There's this part of me that knows, like something, something kind of magical could be unfolding. And then there's the other part of me that's like, you're going to screw this all up. You're, you know, you have no idea where you're going. You don't have a plan for it. It's not all thought out. And so I can feel that back and forth and yet, that's like the edge I wanna walk and I wanna be able to express from there. I wanna be able to own that place of vulnerability and yeah, just be honest with it. And the more that I can do that, the more that it, it allows me to stay on that edge longer. I'm not saying that it makes it easier. Not say, well, it does, in some ways it makes it a little easier. It doesn't resolve it, that's what I'm going for. It doesn't resolve it, right? But that's okay.
Aaron (00:25:11):
Yeah. I mean, are you really going for a resolution or are you just going to be in the process of being in the question, right? Cos there's this, I think there's this false notion that we all are victim of because of what human beings, but like, it just changes. It just changes the alchemy of it, right? It just shifts. It's like I was looking at this stream the other day in, near woods, which is, it's such a beautiful place and there's great ways to access it without having to go through the tourist trap. And I was just looking at the water and I was like, well, shit, do you know, like, look at the water. Like, you know, it's in many ways it, it's the baseline where I've used the word again, essence of life. And just look at that, like, there is no one place in time you can call water, water, like, oh, there's the water. But there, it moves. Was that different water I just went by? And so, you know, our need to compartmentalize and put things in a box, creates all the friction. And if we can just be with the water of life and flow and, and not create the definitions or look even for resolutions, like holy shit, you know, we want it resolved. It's like, no, this is just how it is right now. And this is gonna change by just the fact that life is moving, right? Like, so sorry to be so adamant. Cause I don't pretend to have answers. So I'm just really excited by the notion of, of that.
And then one other thing I wanna mention too, when you said, be honest, that really resonates with me for a couple reasons. One is, I definitely haven't been a hundred honest with myself about what's happening, what's underneath, why I do what I do. You know, all the cover-ups, leadership being a great one. Leadership is the greatest cover of them all. I don't have to be with you and be connected and be accepted by you. I'm the leader, so I'm kind of like, you just kind of have to, and like, you know, my, that's my only way to create connection, you know, and past lives and as a leader, you know, here's my, my role and all of these ego things. And it just is like a cover for me, just being myself and being okay with that and being seen who I am.
And then the second thing on honesty is I'll just say it, at least what I've seen, especially with men, but I'm sure it goes both ways, so I'm just not a woman. There's a real challenge of being like real honest, real honest, cos there's a worry of conflict. You know, like I really say what I think or feel, there's a real worry of like, you know, leaving things out. I've done that a couple times with my wife where I'm just like, nah, she doesn't need to know that. And it's just not impeccable with my word. And it creates energy that you can't always know why, but it creates that dissent energy. And I, I know a lot of us guys just get stuck in not being honest, both with ourselves and then with others and it really hurts and it really creates a lot of discord and I think health issues. So,
Luke (00:28:01):
Tremendous.
Aaron (00:28:02):
Yeah. I love you brought up the honesty piece.
Luke (00:28:04):
Again, I think it's, you know, the, the, you describe it in many ways, right? As the, the honesty with self and then the honesty with others. And it of course begins with the honesty with, with self. That's the part that we build such armor, you know, and, and walls up within ourselves. Because when we step into that level of just raw honesty, it's like, what's gonna crumble? What's gonna fall? Like you said, it's, it's, you know, part of it may be the worry of conflict or judgment or things like that. And I think it's actually even another couple steps beyond that, which is that, that's all gonna lead to some form of death. Something's gonna die, meaning something's gonna be lost that can't be repaired and it's just, we keep it so bottled up and you know, I mean, we know it's gonna leak out through the cracks anyway. It's not,
Aaron (00:28:58):
We got sideways, you know, comes out with anger,
Luke (00:29:00):
It's coming out.
Aaron (00:29:02):
Yeah. All sorts of stuff, right?
Luke (00:29:03):
Completely. It's gonna, it's gonna come out and you know, there's so much stress and friction and we can go into the physiology of that, the neurobiology of that. And I, you know, we can go down that road, but I think it's just, let me kinda go to the flip side of that, this is something that came up in one of the conversations the other day is, how it's some point with that honesty, it almost like collapses the internal world and the way that we externally present ourselves, right? You, normally, they're divided and they're divided by this what's being portrayed and what's really known inside. And then when we're fully honest and we can express from that place of honesty, you, all of a sudden those two things come right back together again. And even with the stress and the turmoil that you may go through as a result of what may or may not be, need to be owned in that particular moment, somehow even within that fast maturity of people I know, express extraordinary relief of, you know, it's that, I just finally got it out. I just finally let it out. I finally expressed what I needed to. And even though it got met with this, I just, now I can do something about it, right?
Aaron (00:30:14):
Yeah. I'm thinking of one of our spiritual teachers to talk about defecation. That's the feeling.
Luke (00:30:19):
Yeah. Right, right. Exactly.
Aaron (00:30:21):
It feels, oh, terrible. It's terrible. But it's out. I was just thinking about too, maybe one of the, um, subtitles of, of, uh, On This Walk is honest conversations. Like the honesty piece is really there. And I think you pulled on something that's critical. Like, well, we pull one thread. We're so fearful of the whole ball of yarn, the whole shirt apart. Cause like one thing I pulled that away from me. That's why we fight for so many things, we fight to be right, because if I'm not right, I'll have, how long have I not been right? Forever. And these are happening at a very subconscional level. And I only say, cause I know from firsthand experience and, and it's okay. And I think, I mean the biggest thing I hear when I was listening to you talk is like, we're just all afraid. Can we just admit it, we're fucking afraid. Anybody who's projecting the ego, I got it figured out, is the most afraid. That was me not too long ago. And I'm still afraid, right? Like I sit in these conversations afraid of outcomes of, you know, if I really express how I feel, will my wife stay with me? Well, you know, I feel, you know, if I really express how I feel, will I ever be able to make money? You know, like all of these things and,
Luke (00:31:32):
It just, what popped in my head as you described that, you know, the owning the, of afraid kind of expression, right? Of just being able to put that out there was that I had no idea how much liberation I would feel with the three simple words of, I don't know. And getting comfortable with that phrase. I don't know. Where's this going? I don't know. Well, what do you think about this? I don't know.
Aaron (00:31:56):
To plan financials with your wife, I'll say that.
Luke (00:32:01):
It makes it a little dicey. I don't know. And at the same time, I think it's, there's this acknowledgement of this just plain, straight up acknowledgement of what is, right? And that's, that's part of what we're afraid of is that we don't wanna acknowledge that we don't know. We don't wanna acknowledge maybe the very thing that's right in front of us because it's been really scary. And when we speak it, all of a sudden it becomes more real, forgetting the fact that it's already real. Like it's already there, whether we speak it or not. It's, it's when we speak it, even if those words are, I don't know, it's just, I don't know how, but it, man does that move energy?
Aaron (00:32:39):
You know, for me, I think it's because we're at a spiritual plane, you know, we're, you know, there's this mind construct plane, the thinking, then there's the emotional construct kind of more of the body. And when we're able to, we don't know, we open up to the spiritual mystery of it all. That is so liberating. You know, it's why we all read so many spiritual books, like again and again, or new ones. Cause we just don't wanna lose that sense of curiosity and mystery. That is probably the closest thing to truth.
Luke (00:33:06):
I'm glad you brought that word mystery back in, right? Cause I think that's, that's one of the things I've resonated with, right? Is, is even on my spiritual path of looking at it is as the great mystery. We're, we're not gonna know, we're not gonna know in this, in this flesh and form, uh, we're not gonna know all those things and we've got all the, the religions and philosophies and spirituality as to what that may lead to and you know, I'm, I'm not gonna prescribe a specific one to you. But it's embracing the fact that one way or the other, there's a mystery while we're here, very, very big one, and for all I know, we're only gonna move on to the next mystery. I don't know.
Aaron (00:33:42):
With that mystery, not get caught so much in the drama of what's gonna happen, but can we just run with the mystery and just like enjoy the mystery of it all and let ourselves be and just, you know, be in that knowing that this is all unfolding without, you know, control and expectations piece is so, so huge. Like that's, you know that for me, like the expectations piece and wanting to control it just really the way of that fun.
Luke (00:34:08):
Absolutely.
Aaron (00:34:09):
Life isn't fun when you have expectations because it never ever happens that way.
Luke (00:34:15):
No matter what.
I just wanted to offer a quickest side here on this mystery of life, the unexpected and the unknown. There's a delicate balance between goals, plans and expectations, goals and plans can be important to set direction and have actual steps for how we're going to go out and create certain things within our life. You wouldn't want a home builder operating without blueprints, right? And that's absolutely where I've operated so much of my life. But with that approach often came expectations. And to me, expectations are sort of like judgments waiting to happen. It's okay to have benchmarks, to review progress, to make adjustments, but expectations sort of set up this, it needs to be this way, respective, where it must look like this, those expectations can box us in. Our psyche wants those expectations to come true because to our minds, meeting those expectations aren't just about meeting our goals.
They're the foundation for satisfaction and more specifically, for certainty. And when those expectations don't match up, which let's face it, very often they don't, our minds want us to start controlling whatever we can to make those expectations pan out again. Or maybe the mind will start the blame, shame and guilt game all over. Expectations can keep us from accepting what is and responding to what's right in front of us. Expectations instead want only the expectations and not to acknowledge what is now different. But let me digress to simply this point about expectations, expectations crowd out the magic, the mystery of this life. It has the chance to delight us with avenues and experiences we never thought possible, but our expectations keep us with blinders on, looking only to fulfill those expectations. Since I've been practicing to surrender into the mystery, I've begun welcoming the unknown and just being with it as if I was watching this great movie unfold in real time, excited to see what's next.
And heck, I'm not just watching this movie, I'm in it. I'm more alive. I'm more present. I'm more grateful. I'm more mindful for all that's unfolding. I'm more relaxed and at peace. I'm simply enjoying the ride more. This doesn't mean I don't have plans or that I'm not undertaking activities to move this podcast to my other interest forward. I am, I'm doing these things too, but I'm almost immeasurably more open to the winding road that may intersect my plans. And I'm now more than ever ready to say, hey, let's see where this goes. And so I invite you to simply surrender into the mystery just a bit more, maybe 10% more than before, maybe 20% and then take it from there. Feel what it's like to release the expectations and attachments that give us perceived certainty. And instead dance with the unknown, dance with the flow of life, see what new paths it invites you to see. And you still always have the choice. You can keep on the road that you're already on, but maybe, just maybe, something spectacular is trying to work its way into your life. If you'd only just open up to it.
At the end of the day, we're still in this world and we're still gonna have to have a financial plan of, of any kind, right? Of even just to get to the end of the day. And, right? It's some degree we, we wanna know, how are we paying for our next meal? How are we paying for our shelter? Uh, and those types of things, right? So there is some practicality that is still here because we're still embodied. We still have, uh, survival needs and, and safety needs that need to be met. One I wanted make mention now cause anybody listening, like I don't wanna skip over that. Cause that's obviously a huge, huge piece of this. And it's like, how do we do both? Like how do we start to, to move in these different directions? Now I'll, I have no idea where, where, you know, I, I, I don't know any of the steps in between, so I'm gonna skip to step like 10,000 because I don't know the first, you know, 9,999 is, is something I heard from Joanna Macy, and I forget exactly who she was referencing. Cause I know somebody else she was referencing, was that until we start recognizing that we have placed industrial growth at the center of our lives. Okay. And yeah, I look Pandora's box, this opens up, but we'll try to keep it non, you know, we're not gonna go to the philosophical side, I hope, but we've placed this idea of industrial growth at the center and the way she described it, which was so impressive to me or it, it just, it put words to feelings I've had, is that when one part basically becomes more important than the rest, than the whole, that's basically how we define disease, right? And you, there's no way for the whole to remain in balance, which means there's no way for it to be sustainable.
Whereas if at the center of our wheel, was for us to live in a life sustaining way and I think that's part of what I'm walking with right now is like, how do I marry all of these really kind of deep things I'm processing and this deeper spiritual relationship that's always unfolding? And this way that I wanna be able to just embrace the flow of life, because I don't know how it's gonna unfold next and make sure that's married to the center of the dartboard, which is life sustaining philosophy action goal, right? That, that's the balancer, that's the center of the dartboard. And it's kind of, you know, walking the wheel around that life sustaining center. So anyway, I just, I wanted to bring that in because it's, it's I think the place that, let me see where, where I go with this, it's just that the most practical places that some of this deeper conversation goes, I think are number one is, I think it will greatly affect our relationships because if we can step into the, the, the relationship itself with greater honesty and transparency and break down those walls.
The way we're gonna show up with others is gonna, is gonna be vastly more vulnerable, more honest, and honestly more integral. When, when we do that, I think it also means that when we get that clear and honest and expressive with self and others, we start making better decisions. And, and by better, I, I will define that as more holistic, meaning thinking of more perspectives, not just the one that, that you normally would see with the blinders on. And I think those decisions are also a little bit more of a, a broader mindset, a a, a systemic level mindset, meaning that we're also thinking about the implications in a very, very different way so that we can keep things like life sustaining at the center of, of what we're aiming for. So our decisions get richer. I think the way we communicate deepens, which obviously is related to relationships as well, but it, it, how much struggle do we have just simply because we can't, we get so hung up when we try to communicate of, you said this, you said that, no, you must be on that side of the aisle. You must be on that side of the aisle because you use these words, or I know what you meant by that. It's like, stop, stop, stop, stop, and actually be present to what is going on. Be present to what somebody's expressing. And I think that, and that's just kinda the last thing for me of, of all of this, of, of, and I'll pause for a second is, is,
Aaron (00:42:05):
You know, when you said, stop, stop, stop, but just, I embody that real quick is I feel like in my marriage, there are times where I'm just like, you know, and I'm not blaming my wife for it. Like we all do it, but it's just like, no stop, stop. I don't have to go there. It doesn't have to be like this. It doesn't, the accusations, the rejections. And it's just like, oh, you know, it's hard. It's so draining on us. And I was thinking about this like, certainty question you put out there, like, where are you on the certainty spectrum or pendulum? You know, I think societally, we're way on the like, need for certainty over as long, a period as time as possible, right? How do you think about the words retirement? Holy shit. Like, we're building ourselves on lives to retire and have a sense of certainty for the next 20 years.
If you're building your life for the last 20 years of your life, I feel like you're missing your entire fucking life in it. Like the notion of it. I don't say retirement's bad or good. I'm not like here to say that, but it's the energy of what we're heading towards because we so desperately want certainty for our lifetime and we spend a lifetime getting there and then what, what's left. It's like, but that just hit me. I've never said those exact words before. I was like, wow. And so can we come from the less certainty over time piece? Like you said, can I just be sure that I'm gonna get a meal today? That's how we pretty much survive for a long period of time. And then there's, you know, a time where are we okay for the next week or this season? And so, you know, we live much more harmoniously when we can address things with less duration of certainty, right? Who's gonna make lunch today? I think that you need to probably figure that out. So you're gonna eat in a couple hours or else things get really bad, but you know, how are we gonna eat lunch for the rest of our life? You can get a lot of traps there, for sure. So,
Luke (00:43:54):
I like the frame of kind of, what's the timeframe of certainty that we're addressing right now? And knowing that that timeframe is something we step in and out of meaning that, you know, today it may be about getting through the day, right? And what's the certainty that I can have today because that's where my energy is. And then there's gonna be other times where, you know, the cloud's part and you've got a much longer view. And those are the moments that maybe you drop in some of the, the longer term seeds that are, are meant to be there. And that knowing that you can also pick those seeds up, right? That just because you're moving in one direction doesn't mean that it has to be that way. I mean, that's what started this whole conversation today. Not surprising that we came, came back around there, huh? And so, uh, but I, I think that's very interesting frame.
What I wanted to come back to, and it was actually you, it was a word you even mentioned, uh, after it came back to me, it came out of your mouth. Was it in this way of communicating with one another? And, and, and some of these things that, that, that are, you know, I hope are gonna surface within us that, that marry this to the practical. Now, let me go a little bit outta the practical, back to kind of the deeper conversation, but the relevancy of it. I think one of the things I've, I've connected to recently that I own in myself and, and is what like, is this deep yearning within me, that's growing is how much we project our wounds out onto the world. And then we blame the world for the wound.
And that's one of the things that creates this unnecessary division. And this division, the separation that we feel is actually with ourselves. Because that's the part of us that we don't wanna own. It's part of us we don't wanna be honest about, I recognize at times in my life, how resentful I would get towards, you know, certain individuals who would prioritize, you know, certain things, what felt like were being, you know, prioritized at my expense or above me, uh, at any given time, I felt like I was being deprioritized in that process. And I would, I'd get resentful. It caused arguments. Uh, it'd bring out ways of, well, you know, how do I control this situation to get to the expectation more clearly, maybe I just haven't communicated clearly enough. So there was also the part of me that would reflect it back as a piece of inadequacy as to why this was the case.
So, I was an equal opportunity blamer in those moments, right? It was taken out on others and it just taken outta myself. Uh, there was tons to go around. And what I needed to come to grips with was in those moments, and, and there, there was such a wound in me about not placing myself first. And so the wound was expressed as you need to place me first in this instance. And if they didn't, it was like, I was wounding myself all over again, right? And so it was being project, they had no idea. They were just doing what they thought was best in any given situation and whatever it was doesn't freaking matter. They didn't know, but this whole story and of projection was coming out through me. And it was all because I didn't wanna address this wound of yeah, that's right, Luke, cos you're not prioritizing yourself because you're not even goddamn listening to yourself. And so how could I expect them to fix it when I wasn't willing to at least address that myself?
Aaron (00:47:20):
Knowing you, you, you always put other people in front of yourself. And so, and I, just reflecting back to the anger, right? I hear the anger in a lot of us, guys are really afraid of our anger. Especially when we claim to be above it or try to project in our various roles. But yeah, I feel like that's a lot of anger and that's great for me to see cos I haven't seen angry Luke too often. I have, I have.
Luke (00:47:46):
Yeah, doesn't come out often.
Aaron (00:47:49):
But he, angry Luke, needed to like, be heard.
Luke (00:47:52):
It's those types of wounds, I can go into a little background cos I, maybe, maybe this is good for me to express, is that I recognize that, you know, so most of that energy, as best as I know, is associated with being younger, five, maybe five and a half years old, and our house burnt down, just gutted. And we lived in this, this wonderful multi-generational house, had been in the family for decades at that point. Somewhere in that day, because I heard, I've heard for years from my parents, especially from my mom, how dramatically my personality changed overnight. And somewhere in that day, I decided to bottle up my pain. One, because it was too painful. I repressed a lot of the emotions, a lot of the feelings that were there because I didn't know how to process them and letting 'em out felt like, you know, opening up a Pandora's box.
So just stuff those down and that lasted for about 17 years. I know the exact date that it started to change, and so does everybody actually know that date. I also made the decision in doing that, that I didn't wanna cause pain to others. And so I think I reflected even specifically with my parents, that it was like, I knew I could feel the pain they were in cos of what we were going through. I mean, it was just fucking awful. And so I didn't want them to have to worry either. And it was like, don't show your pain cos that causes other people pain. And I just became this fiercely independent kid, fiercely. Yeah, I was a kid at, at 13 years of age, my dad would go to hand me 20 bucks to go to the movies and it's like, thanks, dad. I already made my own money. I got it myself. And he's like, what in the hell? What kid doesn't accept 20 bucks from his dad, right? And, uh, might have been 10 bucks. Movies were much cheaper, uh, a lot cheaper. But it, it's like there was that fierce streak of, of independence, but the independence while it paid off, because it actually conforms to what society wants in terms of being resilient and everything else. So I got rewarded for shutting like that part of me out. But when it was, it was costing me like my heart and soul and only cause I alluded to it. I, you know, I, the reason why I know exactly when that started to change was because I was beyond cracked wide open on September 11th and the experiences of, of that day. And you know, I, I don't need to go into all of that.
I was, I was watching the things unfold from, from Hoboken across the Hudson River from, from Lower Manhattan. But I, I know very specifically that day things opened back up and me cried didn't have a choice. They just, I was cracked open again. But anyway, coming back to, I've had to do a lot of reflecting and contemplating and work and dialogue and coaching and counseling and all those types of things to be able to begin to understand the way these patterns were playing out my life. And I've only cited like, you know, one to you at this point, but I was taking that out on the world, nothing to do with the world. Absolutely nothing to do with the world. And the more that I get present to that, the more I look around and it just, when people aren't expressing and being honest with what's going on inside of themselves, I see the same dance. It literally, I can feel it now I can feel the tears that are just right, right, welling up a bit because I can feel that hurt and that pain and where we go with it and how we project it out. And when we're not projecting it out, we try to, as we said before, uh, distracted away in some fashion either way, it's not being resolved and it's, it's just gonna come out.
Aaron (00:51:22):
Just, I feel you with that, yeah, that breath you just took, I, when anybody's expressing their anger, their shame, their sadness, uh, in the ways that don't feel generative, it's just like, oh my gosh, the moon must be, you know, so deep, so big. There's just a lot of compassion for that because that's what's happening. And our anger at the world is only our wounds, you know, trying to express themselves. And I wanna say it like this, like thank God for our emotions. They are telling us exactly what we need to know. Resentful. You got, you got a wound you gotta take care of, you know, I'm angry, thank God for tragedy. It wakens us up to our humanity. We're not here to understand why tragedy happens, which is always at least the question I have, like why does this have to happen to so many people? But it's like, just takes us out of all of that. I'm curious if you have looked at the story of the fire when you were a child and asked yourself when that story ends.
Luke (00:52:33):
It's interesting. I'm not even sure I know how to answer that. I can feel the way that my mind would like to answer that.
Aaron (00:52:39):
What are you feeling right now? Maybe just tell us what's coming up in your body that's, sensations.
Luke (00:52:43):
There's um, I think there's part of me that, let me see if I can express this. There's something that feels like there's this ongoing emerging that is still unfolding from those events and connecting to that story while it used to be one that was expressed with the wounds that were there. Now it's one that I can express with great vulnerability and reflection. And I know that that's part of my, what I've, one of the legs of my journey. One of the trips that, that, that I've taken in this life that allowed me to walk away from myself, walk away from that deeper part of me to which I feel like I'm coming back. And so it feels like there's something still unfolding. But I will say that feels different than like, when I, when you first said it, my mind immediately wanted to say, what can you say now that shows that you've healed this.
That's where my, my, my mind wanted. Like, how can you say that? I've I've, I've got this, I accomplished it. I did it, right? And like, it wanted to go there and now I can in sharing what I did. It's like, I don't know if the story's over yet, but not because I don't feel like it's an element of healing that's still needed, but there is an element. There's a piece of the story that hasn't yet been told that maybe there is something that's healing in there. I don't know yet, or maybe it's something that is giving me fuel to my fire of how this next part of the journey is gonna unfold. And I don't know. And that's part of, right? That's part of what I also feel is the unknown of that. Like, I can feel almost like this little bit of a void that, that feels like it's, it's within me almost down to my solar plexus. That is like, not gonna show you that yet.
Aaron (00:54:42):
Yeah. Open to a reflection? Man. Gosh, I learned so much just by listening. It's like, when I'm saying these things, it's only cause I'm like learning, I hear real time with you, but there's something about the fact that I've heard that story a few times, right? That was what prompted me to say what I said that allowed me to come to this, like notion of the, you know, our tragedies, our traumas, you know, become the story of the narrative that help us try to understand some of the things that don't, that aren't understandable. The question why I am this way, right? A big one. So many examples of that, you know, when people have trauma in their life that, that fit. And I think yours is a great example that I can feel too. Cause it's there is this, when you said the void, there's this thing that there is something behind that story that is what is, is the essence of what it is that, you know, and that story becomes that for all of us becomes a narrative. This is where I think if you ask me and now I'm getting a little heady, but this is where I think therapy ends. Therapy tend to chew to that place so you can understand it, but then there's some real work to be done from that place forward. Because we're not meant to like understand the mysteries of life again and how we show up in this symphony. And so there's something about that, like how that story can just when it dissolves and how it becomes not about you, but maybe this, that piece, you pull off the shelf as an example. And,
Luke (00:56:16):
Yeah, I think it's, I'd say it even a little differently than just, just a reference to therapy. It's that a lot of the modalities that, that we have in this, this world, uh, that I've experienced and, and been part of, um, both as recipient and practitioner, speak to almost like a quelling of the mind or a rebalancing of the mind so that the mind feels healthier or is more operable in the way that we would like it to be. And that can be either through working through specific mental health or it can just be, you know, I, I feel like I can move past my blocks. I can handle those limiting beliefs. I can overcome those things, it's this, but more of this kind of like this overcoming or, or achieving kind of aspect of our minds. Anyway, it makes, it's, it's about an equanimity to, to not even equanimity, it's just about this balancing of the mind to me is a lot of those modalities. And at some point we've gotta move into this, this other realm as, as one of our teachers refers to it as the, the mind is kind of more that horizontal plane, and then we've got this vertical plane. And in that vertical plane on the, the, the ascendant, the top side of it, is the spiritual and that's what most religions and spiritualities and, you know, everything has been focused on is, is kind of how do we transcend, how do we ascend from the experience that we're in and the part that's very often left out, unless you've been very fortunate enough to walk with some of the indigenous wisdoms and cultures and elders that you recognize that the lower part of that vertical is the realm of the soul. And that's also been a profound difference in my journey is getting connected to a more soulful approach.
Spirituality is a huge piece of this, and frankly, so is my, the balance of my, my normal life. It's about how do I bring all of these into some level of balance, right? That work with each other while it's a moving object, too, right? Cause it's not like static, it's constantly moving around too, but it was getting connected in a more soulful way to go deep, to go like within myself in a deeper way to get more deeply connected into nature, to listen to those messages, those energies that are even, like that's even where that honesty emerges from, right? Is it's, it's emerging from something so deep within us, by the time we put voice to it, yes, maybe it's moved through our mind at that point, but there's this deeper, it's, right? It's what, what Parker Palmer called the, the inner teacher, uh, I've referenced it many times of why we're trying to listen within and that inner voice. And, and that still small voice, but it's this other deeper energy that's way beyond our mind, but it's uniquely us too. And I think that's the, right? And that's the distinction I'm trying to get to is that spirituality focuses more on how we connect back to the one. However, each of us wants to define that, but the soulful side is still a recognition of we individuated to be here in some unique form, some essence. And there's a part of that, that there's a, not just a part of it, there's all of that, that lives actually within us. Like that's here right now. And it's only when we can kind of drop down beneath the mind and out of some of the modalities that kinda keep us more of the managing of things that I'd say we hear this voice, but it's not real, it's so much more than a voice cos it's just, it's, its presence of energy, of awareness, of feeling that starts to come through.
And it's that relationship. It's that connection that has me the time staring at big decisions and just feeling completely calm, even though there's so much that can be disrupted in the moment. And I know that when I feel the disruption, I'm no longer in connection with that voice. I know I'm now, like back in the mind. And so it's, I dunno if I can explain that really much, much better than I can at the moment, because that's, that's where my experience is. I just wanted to make that distinction that there's certain modalities that keep us into and very effective at, at kinda managing the realm of the mind, which is more of the, the typical sensing of, of this 3D world that we walk around in. And there's this whole other plane realm, I don't know what you wanna call it, that we ultimately can connect into, that to me is some of the most honest version of who we are.
Aaron (01:00:48):
Yeah. I hear so much what you're saying, what was really nice for me was, you know, there were some moments in there where you were sharing your experience, but you're actually processing that aloud and that's what's coming through and that was really helpful. And it just like, I feel it too, because it helps move me from the conceptual of like how we're using. Cause we have to calm our minds to then be able to tap into our bodies. And we do that somatically. We can do that through, you know, we just need to understand why am I the way I am? Once you understand that, okay, now what's some of the work and then how do you go deeper? But I really like that the process that was unfolding for you there. And I, I was noticing the sense of a big decision and what's really cool for me was that you didn't make it big, meaning you didn't say I had these big decisions to give all this context on how grandiose they were. Cause when you were tapping into the soul, at least the way I experienced it, was that they, the scheme of things, when you have real perspective on life, like there's, there's no such thing as a big decision, it's just what's unfolding next. And I can sense that in the way you were talking about it, cause you labeled it as how we all look at it or how, you know, our mind gets on it. But when we're really there, it's like, yeah.
Luke (01:02:04):
Any ways that I would've described it we're all about my mind trying to make it sound important.
Aaron (01:02:09):
Right.
Luke (01:02:09):
And I can feel it.
Aaron (01:02:10):
Right. And somehow that this is a big deal and, and yes, I mean, when it comes to safety, when things change, we feel very uneasy and that just, it's just true. It's okay.
Luke (01:02:21):
Absolutely.
Aaron (01:02:22):
Sit into that and go, okay, I am safe. I am okay. And our traumas inform us so many of those safety things, right? That's the problem. We gotta, we can't unlock those little micro or macro traumas, for me at least, and be clear and true and honest about it. The best thing that's happened to me, and I'm honest about my deficiencies, let's call microtraumas and things that are holding me back with my wife. That's where real unfolding happens, both, and we can create and connect together where there's an understanding, there's level of compassion, the battles end, the guards are down. The more I can keep expressing those things in a way that's tapped into my truth and my emotions, the better. It happened to me the other morning and holy shit, everything I ever wanted came to fruition in that moment. I was tearful cause I was like, I haven't expressed this openly in a long time. This is where I'm at and what I need. And man, that was like, there ain't no sex as good as that. That was like, wow.
Luke (01:03:28):
That warms my heart man. When we're able to really allow ourselves to be seen, to express from that place, to be open and honest, vulnerable, it creates such a different space. The connection it creates. And, and even if, even if that connection is not fully accepted by the other, you feel like it doesn't matter cos you, right? You can just, you feel the emptying out.
Aaron (01:03:57):
You feel relieved.
Luke (01:04:00):
Right? It creates a very powerful and beautiful moment. But it also, like that gets into your skin in a really good way, right? It gets in your bones, it gets in your cells of like, oh wow, that felt really good. And if it is met, like you are met halfway, it, you've got even that much more kind of that, that, that gets affirmed and, and, and, and moves into you at that moment too. I appreciate you sharing that. And I, I, you know, I can think of, of those moments, it's, it's, at some point I'll, I'll give her plenty of space cos this would not be the space that she would enjoy being in it, knowing that it could get shared, but it would be very interesting for my wife, uh, for Dawn to share how she would perceive me in relationship with her today than 10 years ago, you were gonna ask a question, something about change of how we can change or can we change or something like that before. What was that question?
Aaron (01:04:53):
Just a little bit of context. I think it's relative to, yeah, all of us kind of relating. During COVID, uh, a bunch of my old college buddies and I decided we were gonna circle and you know, circling wasn't a thing in their vernacular, right? And, and we did, and we held some space for everybody's share and let everybody do their thing and be witnessed. And you know, one of the guys came up and said, you know, can we really change? Yeah. If I, if I got it right, I think he's approaching 50. And that was a real question. Like, can we change? And I, I feel like that's, actually, that's interesting. Based on what we just talked about, is unequivocally, yes, and it's not that that isn't the obvious piece, but the why behind it, for me at a more soulful level is it's because of that stream analogy again, because it already is changing. Everything is already changing, the illusion that things are the same. So of course we can change. And then, you know, if you get into the work, I just did the question is, are you willing to do it? So you're ready for a little bit of pain to get to the game.
Luke (01:06:01):
There's so many beautiful ways of, of expressing it just came out and, and how you shared that. But the, you know, the very thing that brings up our fear is uncertainty because everything is always changing, right? It's the impermanence, right? If we, if we wanna take that tact, it's the impermanence of things that we know everything in this life will born, live and die and that's just what it is, right? That's the cycle. And so, and if we're, if we're lucky actually to pay attention to that cycle is that we, we born, we live, we die and something is grown from that. Something resurrects from that, whatever language you choose to use. Uh, and some of us do that many times within one life. And actually I think we all do that, uh, life I, what was the famous Buddhist monk? Uh, life is many deaths, I think is I I've held onto that for years.
But anyhow, the, the fact that the irony of we fear the impermanence and then we'll ask questions like, well, can we change? And it's part of, right? It's part of that game of the mind, because the mind wants static. It wants things fixed because that's how it knows itself. That's how it knows life is okay or not okay. But at least it's in a pretty little box that I call okay, it's managed. I can manage it. It's, you know, it's why do we stay in pain as opposed to leaving pain? It's because it's familiar, same thing, it fits in the box at times. And so the irony being is that we're already always changing. And I think in some ways it's are you willing? But I also think, are you not only willing to make change, but are you willing to allow change?
Aaron (01:07:33):
Right.
Luke (01:07:33):
There's an allowance piece and allowing piece that's also within that.
Aaron (01:07:37):
Yeah. Yeah.
Luke (01:07:38):
Totally. Because it is happening if you'd let it, because the irony, right? Is that the reason why we don't change is that we actually keep going back to what was. As opposed to, to, and that's right, and that's, that's a whole other line of suffering. Is that, all of it, right? As opposed to, oh, that's no longer true. Or something's changing and I don't know what's changing and be alone that pace. So we don't need to go further on this one now because I, I will return to all different aspects of change in this conversation physiologically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, all of those things.
Aaron (01:08:12):
Yeah. I mean the, one thing I just wanna mention, like, even by the conversation we're having right now, we have changed. You know what I'm saying? It's like, when that was asked it's like, just by asking the question and so it's just, yeah. There's so, yeah, so much more, to be continued.
Luke (01:08:28):
To be continued. So we'll, uh, to be continued on the next walk.
Aaron (01:08:33):
Yeah. Thank you my friend, I had a lot of fun and um, yeah. Opening to new and other ways to do this.
Luke (01:08:39):
Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you brother.
Thank you for joining me for this episode of On This Walk. Before signing off, please subscribe to the show and don't miss a single episode. Also, please rate and review us. This helps me greatly in getting the word out about this show. And remember, this is just the start of our conversation. To keep it going, ask questions, add your own thoughts, join the ongoing conversation by just heading over to onthiswalk.com and click on Community in the upper right hand corner. It's free to join. Until we go on this walk again, I'm Luke Iorio. Be well.