025 - Introverts Unite & Connect for a Quiet Revolution
Have you ever felt like your introversion has left you feeling inferior because you choose to observe rather than speak up? How can introverts find balance in solitude and simultaneously be in a community with others?
Our heart-centered guests on this week’s episode of On This Walk are two of my past walking partners, Jenny Wiley and Michael Smith. They both have experience working with others in their respective positions and helping communities of individuals find their purpose and fulfillment. Also, as people with introverted qualities, they know the struggle to find a balance between solitude and socialization.
Today, we’re unpacking that challenge and exploring how meditation, boundaries, and permission can allow us to find safety in ourselves and our identities.
In This Episode
(0:25) The importance of finding the natural balance in introversion
(8:50) The main reason Susan Cain’s book, Quiet, spoke to Jenny
(14:48) Why we must balance the need to be with people and the need for solitude
(19:49) The layers of beauty that emerge when we set boundaries surrounding our time and energy
(23:22) Why we have to work through the challenging feelings that can come when we’re quiet
(29:28) The major milestone that balance and meditation can help us reach
(34:15) The valuable give and take that comes when we turn toward the practice of meditation
(43:30) The power to cultivate a sense of safety is within YOU
(51:28) Why permission is at the heart of practical boundaries
Notable Quotes
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“Now I’m like, ‘Bring on the yoga! Bring on the mindfulness movement!’ That’s totally my jam. But thinking about slowing down enough to feel exactly what was going on in my life at the time, and it’s still even hard now sometimes, but slowing down to feel all of that, because I was experiencing a lot of shame and judgment around what I should be feeling at that time, it was often very intense for me to slow down and feel those things. Because not only was I slowing down and feeling them, I was judging them too in that quiet space. And that judgment added a layer of pain that now I know was just not even necessary.”
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“There’s one really important energy that we need to embody and live, and that is the energy of permission and giving ourselves permission. When we are not creating boundaries in the way that our true self might be asking us to create boundaries, it’s usually because we are not giving ourselves permission to do more of something or less of something. And it’s usually often around early childhood experiences, the way that we grew up, traumas in our past, and the fears that are attached to that.”
Our Guests
Jenny Wiley specializes in community coaching and helping organizations rebuild, reenergize, and grow. She currently serves as Director of Programming & Community Growth for the Institute for Professional Excellence in Coaching (iPEC), which works with committed individuals to help them reach their goals, dreams, and realize their potential.
Doctoral-trained therapist and healing practitioner Michael Smith is the founder of Empath Connection. As a leader in mind-body holistic healing for nearly two decades, Michael has personally coached thousands of individuals to make stronger connections between mind, body, and spirit.
Resources & Links
On This Walk
Jenny Wiley
Michael Smith
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Luke (00:00:01):
Welcome to On This Walk, a show about the winding journey of life in all its realness. I'm Luke Iorio. Please join me and my brilliant heart-centered guests each week, as we look to navigate this journey more consciously and authentically. Uncovering how to tap back into that sense of connection with self, with soul and with something bigger than ourselves. Now let's go on this walk.
Welcome back, everyone. I am really, really looking forward to walking with you today. And so, uh, maybe the best place to start is with an admission. I am predominantly an introvert. Glad I finally got that off my chest. Now, seriously, I was torn about calling this episode Introverts Unite or maybe just a quiet revolution, and instead, I think I'm gonna mash them up somehow. And this will be the Introverts Uniting for a Quiet Revolution. You see, many people don't actually know this about me because they see me share or talk or present or whatever.
And this was very often the case when I was running iPEC, the renowned coach training institute that I used to run. And people mistook the role that I needed to play for who it is that I really am and, and was. And in truth, I have been, I am, to a large degree, still the shy, quiet wallflower for much of my life. Uh, in school, I was completely fine being the quiet one and letting others initiate. And that's when frankly, I just, you know, couldn't find a way to just simply be on my own later when, you know, in business, uh, whether it was at conferences or in the hallways or around the water coolers, I'd rather run back to my room or to the office to read or to get work done, because I enjoyed that solitude so much. Rather than doing a lot of the networking or the meeting and greeting and catching up type of routine, I had to learn to be much more extroverted in a westernized world that holds an extroverted ideal.
Uh, and this is from, uh, some of the work of Susan Cain in her book, Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Won't Stop Talking. Love that title. Uh, interestingly enough, eastern cultures still place more and more of that ideal on introversion as opposed to that extroverted ideal. This is also described by Cain as the difference between the culture of character, which is more associated with inner quiet, uh, as the East does, and the culture of personality, which is more outgoing or outspoken or the charisma that the West tends to seek. And we tend to want that talkative and charismatic, those outgoing personalities as our leaders and our change makers. And yet, introverts make up as much as a third to maybe even a half of the population based on recent estimates and research. And so by, by introverts and extroverts, I mean, where is it that our power or our energy seems to come from?
If that recharge comes from solitude, from quiet time, from low stimulation and less interaction, you're more likely introverted. If you thrive on the social interaction, that's part of not only how you kind of recharge and get your energy up, but you also tend to process your thoughts and experiences out loud and with others, you're likely more extroverted. And the world needs both of these. We need the balance of both introversion and extroversion, and no, none of us are just all one or the other. We're somewhere on this, on this spectrum of the range of introversion as well as extroversion. And so we need all of these things working together to keep this world moving and evolving. However, what we have found is that more often than not, especially in the westernized world, we value that extroversion. We value that outgoing and that outspoken, as I was saying, uh, being outspoken as I was saying a moment ago.
And we need to return some things into balance. And this is for everybody. This is truly actually not solely for quote unquote introverts. Uh, this is a whole conversation for us to be able to understand some of the nuances as well as some of the power that is there in tapping into these aspects that introverts require. But these attributes, these qualities, this space that we can take is something that we can all completely benefit from. And so, as I started to better understand this idea of was I a bit more introverted or extroverted, and I really started to take a look at how this was playing out in my life, I recognized many things, but I'll share two because one was a gain and one was a loss. What I gained through my more introverted nature was that I had a tendency to step back.
I would seek quiet as well as occasional solitude, even when I was young. And I started observing as well as reflecting very early on. And so I ended up developing a very rich inner life and dialogue while also noticing more and more of what was unfolding around me and throughout my life. I was very aware most of the time, of both the content as well as the context of whatever was happening. And so I tended to notice more of those subtle cues and unspoken messages. And this helped me in a lot of different ways. It helped me in relationships, it helped me in decision making as well as in leadership. And I also lost something in the process because I also felt that I had to be more extroverted. I had to be more outgoing, more outspoken. I had to work on being more charismatic.
And so I taught myself to do those things to whatever degree I was capable of. And the more that I did, the more that I started to step into that space, the more that I felt out of alignment with my true nature. I felt in some ways that I was fragmenting myself. I was feeling more and more disconnected because it was not my natural design. It was not naturally who I was. And there were also some spaces, some quietude that I was sorely missing from my life because I had prioritized not having that. I prioritized everything else instead. And so I didn't realize at that time that they're a way, a way of blending these energies until we can each find our personal way of navigating through this world that is really within our nature. And so today, this conversation was prompted by the, the book, by the work of Susan Cain, uh, where one of my friends, past walking partner Jenny Wiley, is coming back to share this with us.
It was a conversation that started with her, and after we spoke about what we thought we might wanna get into and what we wanna discuss, it became clear to me that another past walking partner needed to rejoin us. And that is Michael Smith. And so what we're gonna get into today is a few things. Yes, we're gonna talk a little bit about introversion and extroversion that's gonna come up, but really that's just the backdrop. A little bit of details of, of where this is. There was, you know, two things. One is that Susan Cain framed this in terms of a quiet revolution, meaning how can we rebalance that culture of the outgoing personality with also that inner stillness and that power of quietude? How can we bring these things back together again? And what honestly is the most intriguing to me about all of this is that when we're in that quiet, when we're in that stillness, what emerges?
Like, what is it that begins to step forward when we can let all of those other distractions fall away? And so, regardless of whether you are introverted or extroverted, this is about how do we make the best out of all of us? How do we bring this all together for this balancing effect so that we can find, like I said before, our unique way, our natural way for how we do this? And so let me properly introduce my partners for today. As I said, it is time for us introverts to unite, uh, say that with a bit of a smirk. Uh, so here we go.
Jenny Wiley is a certified professional coach and specializes in facilitating group experiences and connecting and developing communities around a common purpose, values, and a growth mindset. She currently channels her superpowers in her role as Director of Programming and Community Growth for Active Choices, Inc. A training and consulting company dedicated to helping organizations create authentic culture and positive energy workplaces.
And now onto Michael Smith, who is a doctoral trained therapist and healing practitioner. He is the founder of the Empath Connection and has worked to help empaths and highly sensitive people recognize and embrace their gifts. As a leader in mind body holistic healing for nearly two decades, Michael has personally coached thousands of individuals to make stronger connections between mind, body, and spirit. And I will also say, just by the way, he has this really great quiz on his website to know whether you're an empath and what type of empath you are. I'd check it out, it's fun. It's on empathconnection.com. Uh, for those of you that are new to the show, do me a favor, hit the subscribe button so you never miss an episode. Come and walk with us for a while and see how you enjoy these conversations. And now let's go on to our walk with Jenny Wiley, Michael Smith, and the Quiet Revolution. Thank you guys for being here.
Jenny (00:08:46):
So happy to be here.
Michael (00:08:47):
So good to be here, Luke.
Luke (00:08:50):
Outstanding. Jenny, I think I wanted to, to just begin with you, because that's how this conversation even came about was, you know, you reaching out to me, uh, based on a book club that you had been working on. I think that was the, the Bras Off Book Club that you run in your, your spare time. And you were covering both, uh, quiet, I think you'd also just done atomic habits. Um, and I think that was James Clear, if I remember correctly. And I wanted to ask, like, quiet seemed like it spoke to you in a very personal way, and I was curious if you could share a little bit of, like, personally what was it that you seemed to connect to in what was being shared that prompted you to reach out, prompted this conversation.
Jenny (00:09:31):
Yeah, lovely. And I love how you framed everything up too, Luke, this is gonna be a fun conversation. Susan Cain and her work, uh, came into my periphery when I was listening to, uh, one of Brene Brown's podcasts. And actually Susan was on, uh, sharing about her most recent book, Bittersweet, which really, really intrigued me. There were just so many things that she was saying about her new work that, uh, really drew me to just her mindset and the way that she was just speaking so inclusively about the types of personalities that may be a little bit more somber and quiet and like understanding more complex types of feelings and emotions. And then they started talking about her book Quiet and something perked up inside of me because I have always self-identified as an introvert. I know that in my bones I am introverted, and yet I've been living as a extrovert for most of my career.
And most people who would interact with me, same as you, would assume that I am filled up only by interacting with people and having group experiences. Being a community coach is a very, like, you know, obviously you would imagine that I interact with communities a lot, but the, the fact of the matter is I spend a lot of time after coordinating with communities and working in group facilitation experiences, refilling my cup and recharging and really embracing solitude. And so everything that Susan Cain was sharing about how there is just as much value in being an introvert as being an extrovert really made me take notice. And so I brought this book to my book book club circle, Bras Off Cook Club, yes, and we started reading this book, and not everybody in the group was an introvert, obviously, you know, but there were a majority of us who were, and it brought up so many interesting conversations around how we started to understand that we were raised with this mindset, that outward personality and gregariousness was more valuable in society, and how there really wasn't a natural space for more quiet, deep listening and more thoughtful, methodical responses that are typically a little bit more introverted to be valued in the same way. And so this whole quiet revolution concept was really, really appealing to us in that.
Michael (00:12:17):
It's always so funny how when we have these wonderful conversations, things that I hadn't thought about, such as a memory of, uh, from the time I was a child, um, being what, 7, 8, 9 years old, and I'm sure this is something that many of us, including the listeners can relate to being told, oh, you're really quiet, you're awfully quiet as if, and underneath that there's a subtle, uh, judgment, is what I always felt from my family members. Uh, um, you know, that going back to what you were saying, Jenny, you know, that, that it, it, the gregariousness is more valuable in a world that can't stop talking. And so for myself, you know, over the years, what I've come to understand is that I don't identify it as an introvert. And, uh, I don't necessarily identify as an extrovert because I'm like literally truly right down the middle.
And it completely depends on what I and what we, I think this is true for many of us, I'm seeing you guys nodding your heads, right, depends on what we need. I'll give you an example. I live out in the country and I wrote about this in, in my email, uh, to my subscribers a couple of weeks ago, this dilemma. I said, okay, here's my paradox. Here's my conundrum. I love being social. I thrive on conversations like this, meaningful conversations, right? Where I can listen, I can take in and synthesize, and I just love sharing energy with people. And I live out in the middle of nowhere. I'm like, I've got a few deer. I've got, you know, like, uh, and the mountains and the trees, those are my peeps. Those are my friends. And I love that. And remember recognizing that I, it's up to me in order to stay in balance. Luke, you know, talking about how do we do that? It's up to me to find avenues in order so that I'm not, it's not just me. Right? And, and sometimes I can go a little cuckoo crazy, as I call it.
Jenny (00:14:32):
I need to be around people.
Michael (00:14:33):
Right? I need to be around people. And, um, and so I think that's a question I'd like to hear your perspectives on the, on, on the back and forth, the play between that part of us that is introverted and that part of us that is extroverted. And, and I'd like to hear specifically from you, Jenny, even though you identify as an introvert, do you, do you still feel that there is that need that, that I kind of have that I'm talking about too, to be with people?
Jenny (00:15:01):
Yeah, I definitely feel that. And um, the word that just keeps coming up for me is, is balance. And balance can look like different things on different days. Like for instance, you know, I spend a lot of time executing different types of like, group experiences, and the majority of them right now are online because that's the world that I'm living in and I work remotely. And after I have that type of experience, it's not difficult for me to step away from this screen and go meditate or work out and have that solitude away from the screen. But if I were in a in-person type of experience where I'm around people all of the time and there's the performative, like I am facilitating the space, I'm holding the space for everybody. And also, the in-between hallway moments are happening and there's not as many opportunities for downtime, then it's a tricky situation for me because I have to be very, very particular about my boundaries so that I do have time to go recharge and be in solitude.
A great example again is like this past weekend, I had just spent like several days with my family out camping. I'm like, nature, camping, family, so great, so wonderful. I loved it so much. And then at the end of it, I was like, guys, I need like five hours by myself now. But after I had that time by myself, I felt that natural urge to be with them again. And I was like, I'm gonna go crazy if I'm not with my family. I need to go be with them. I need to go be with my people now. And so it's this interesting, like cyclical urge. Like I'm following this urge of like, I love being around people. I love coordinating with people and collaborating and like having these deep types of conversations too. And then I feel that urge to go back and to recharge and to be by myself, but then I feel the urge again to come back into it. And if I don't follow that urge, I get very disjointed. I feel really out of alignment. And I would be what probably my husband would say, grumpy, very grumpy. And it's very apparent that I'm out of alignment.
Luke (00:17:21):
You know, it's interesting because what, with the way that both of you describe it, but Jenny also, the kind of the very specific description you were just giving is what I recognize was that in the, the times that I would run constantly in, in kind of that more extroverted nature, whether that be some of the retreats that frankly you and I did were pretty much on for 72, 96 straight hours, right? There's just no break whatsoever. Uh, but I also even think about this in terms of, of the role inside of being an entrepreneur and being an executive at that time where I would just keep going on and I was there to serve. I was there to support, I was there to make decision. I was on in that regard. And because I didn't have balance, I would come home and collapse at the end of the day.
And it was like, okay, fine. If you're not gonna take space, you're gonna be wiped out. And so that was like the default. And also the sign for me, uh, unfortunately one that went on for way too long before I really understood it, that I was very outta balance and that I was not finding what was that rhythm. And what I think you both highlighted and, and Jenny in, in response to, to the question Michael raised was that you are starting to find that if you are taking time for solitude, then you feel the urge for socialization. And at some point, once the socialization need has been met, you're feeling the urge to come back into solitude. And you're now beginning to find the boundaries and ways of keeping those boundaries so that you can do that more easily. Maybe not all the time, but more easily than, than previous.
And I think the challenge comes in if we are in environments that make it more difficult because we're expected to be on, or we feel like we need to be on, because that's the, the expectation we think is there, is how do we hold our boundaries in those moments? That's where we've gotta find a way of not only doing that for ourselves, but also giving permission to others so that when somebody says, hey, I am, I gotta take a break, I need an hour to go do this. We're getting better, I think at acknowledging that and honoring that. And at the same time, I also, you can still feel the pull of the expectation of, yeah, could I just get maybe just five more minutes, maybe just 10 more, right. Or could you come back at this time as opposed to waiting till then.
And so you can feel that draw forward, and the expectations of trying to play into it. Uh, you know, Michael, I think the, the piece I wanted to ask you about in this is the boundaries piece. Because I, you know, in working with empaths and with highly sensitive individuals, I've gotta imagine that whether it's introversion or extroversion, this balancing effect of knowing how to work with this and create boundaries so that you can recharge in whatever, in whatever way you need to recharge, is really critical because otherwise we're just an over-stimulation or under stimulation.
Michael (00:20:18):
Absolutely. And, you know, uh, I work with a population that I use the label empath, others identify as highly sensitive person. And the underlying dynamic of both is that we have something that the literature calls, uh, sensory processing sensitivity. And that is been described by many psychologists, Dr. Elaine Aaron, and basically 20% of the human population has a very sensitive nervous system to the point where, you know, even a five, 10 minute conversation with someone can be very overwhelming depending on our own unique makeup. So yeah, with, with the population I work with, it's all about setting boundaries and giving ourselves permission to receive. Uh, your question, Luke, about, you know, what emerges in the quiet is such a great question. In my perspective, I would suggest that what emerges for all of us when we really get still and quiet in that half of our personality, because really as we're talking, this is no different than the conversations I have in my community about being human versus being divine.
Extroversion is the human need. Introversion is the divine nature for that we have for stillness. So we're, we're using different labels here to describe what does emerge in the stillness. And what emerges in my perspective is the nourishment, the energy, the peace, the love and the Truth. The Truth with a capital T, Truth is what emerges in the quiet. And that is the truth of who we really are, which are these magnificently gorgeous, beautiful, divine beings of light. The Truth in my perspective is what emerges from that. When we take the time to create the boundaries, nobody can do it other than us. We need to commit to it. And when we do, we receive the truth of who we really are, not the illusions.
Luke (00:22:30):
First and foremost, I wanna acknowledge who we're talking about as balance and to use Michael, the perspective that, that you just raised, but also that I very much share and, and applaud is this element of both divine and human. And that this is about balancing all the aspects of what we are. And I say that very specifically as what we are not who we are. Right. Our who we are is more the identity, the individuation that lies within what we are. And so there is a balance. It is not right or wrong. It is not, we have to do it this way or have to do it that way. It is each one of us finding that balance within these patterns. And the balance for me might be different than the balance for Michael might be different from the balance for Jenny and for you.
So it's going to be something that is a unique path that we need to go through. I think the piece that as we think about what emerges in that space, that I wanna acknowledge a step before Michael, where you went, which is the kind of the beauty of what emerges in that space is, and I've said this before on other shows, that silence and stillness were terrifying to me because in that moment when I would withdraw, the best analogy I have is like when all of your web browsing history gets stuck in your cache, and like your computer just doesn't operate it, it like, it needs to clear, it needs to empty out. Well, that's sort of what like my meditation or quiet time was, was like all that stuff that, that I have been through in the last day, the week, the month, however long it was since I took time for myself, just like almost needs to replay for the sake of being able to release and dump out.
And there's some stuff in there that's not always very pleasant. There's some, um, you know, we, each one of us have some voices that don't always speak kindly to ourselves. And so there's a period of time there. I raised this because I, not only, I think is it part of the challenging aspect of getting into that inner space, but I also think it's why we try to stay so busy with the doing and even prioritize some of the extra version at times for any of us is because it's easier and more fun and exciting and engaging and distracting than sitting with the tough stuff.
Jenny (00:24:45):
Yeah. I would definitely agree.
Luke (00:24:47):
Curious about your experiences with those.
Jenny (00:24:49):
Well, the discomfort piece is really interesting and I really like the way that you put that, Luke, because I can remember a time in my life too when the solitude was very foreign. It was very uncomfortable. I couldn't even conceive what that would be like for me to the point that I remember even having, uh, a conversation very early on in my career in advertising where someone invited me to go to a yoga class for the first time. And I said, huh, no, that's way too slow for me. I need something, Tae Bo was really popular at the time, that's like dating me. But, um, I was like, I need something like Tae Bo where I can like really like bring my energy up, you know, like the slowing down and breathing and stuff like that. Like, that's not for me. Which is so funny to reflect back on that because now I'm like, bring on the yoga, bring on the mindfulness movement.
Like, that's totally my jam, you know? But thinking about slowing down enough to feel exactly what was going on in my life at the time, and you know, and it's still even hard now sometimes, but slowing down to feel all of that because I was experiencing a lot of shame and judgment around what I should be feeling at that time. It was often very intense for me to slow down and feel those things because not only was I slowing down and feeling them, I was judging them too in that quiet space and that judgment made it, that added a layer of pain, that, you know now I know was just, you know, not even necessary, really.
Michael (00:26:31):
Jenny, my, my version of that, I'm so relating to what you're saying, when I was, um, got onto my spiritual path in 2003, I was, uh, coming out of academia where I was always on, right? And I was always up and, and I started hanging out with Lakota and uh, in spiritual ceremony. And that culture, very much like the eastern culture is devoted to our true state, which is silence and quiet. So my very first ceremony, I'll never forget it, I came in and I was like, oh, this is, this is, we're we're such hot shit. We're doing, you know, spiritual ceremony with the, the Native Americans. And I learned very quickly through discomfort, the discomfort of the ego, which wants, my ego wanted to keep me safe by being distracted and active. And it likes doing that. And I think that's a trait that's common for, for all of us, for that human side. It likes to have something to focus on. And it's threatened. It can be threatened by, by silence. And it took some dissonant experiences before I realized that our true nature is just, just, uh, be quiet. And my mentor told me many times, zip it, zip it. Like we don't do the white man's western, you know, chitty chattiness. We sit and we receive our peace, our quiet, our stillness and our divinity when we just shut up.
Luke (00:27:59):
Michael, you just brought up, and I don't know if I've ever connected it to Jenny, what you brought up about, even to me, what the yoga practice can represent was that in some of the time that I've spent with both native and uh, native North American and Southern American, uh, traditions was just how deliberate and paste the various rituals and ceremonies are. So that you are entering into collective silence or collective quietude or these just really sacred moments that you can share together, but it's in that very different container that gets held and what I, just having you just having spoken about yoga also, I guess maybe kind of brings me back to there because there is something about that as well for me is when I have been more dedicated to my yoga practice at times, feeling that connection and that deliberateness that slowness and how that same thing, I, I can't do yoga, I've gotta be busy, I've gotta be active, all the things, right?
And then finally at some point you stick through the resistance long enough and you're like, why was I fighting this? Why would I ever have fought this? And it's the same for ritual and ceremony to me. It's like, well, why wouldn't I, why did I always look at this like, well, can't we just do this and be, you know, move on to the next thing? It's like, no, that's the antithesis of this. Like it's slow. Be here, be with this. Jenny, when we were talking about this in preparing for this conversation and you were starting to find that rhythm of quiet and then being out in, in community and collective and then back into the quiet, you had said something effect of there was something that was within your innermost self that was starting to emerge from that. As you have found your rhythm and as you are finding more and more of that balance with these patterns in these cycles, it seems that something deeper is emerging for you. I was wondering if you could share a bit of, of what that part of the journey's been like.
Jenny (00:30:04):
A lot of it is just a deep sense of knowing my truth. And to go back to what Michael said, my capital T integrated Truth of who I really am without the extra layers of masks and protection and distraction that had been hanging on for a long time. And I know that I'm not done, it's gonna be a journey that never ends. And the more that I come back around to this place of seeing myself again after moving through these cycles, the more I see my true self, it feels almost like I'm on a playground trying out all of the different pieces of equipment that are on this playground. And as I come back around, I'm like, oh man, I really liked those swings. Or I need a friend for this teeter-totter. I wanna do that one again. And, and it really has gotten to the point where I am just approaching so many of these new revelations with a lot of curiosity and playfulness in a way that I've seen glimpses of it in past versions of myself. But now it's like my go-to instead of like three layers down, oh, by the way, I'll eventually get to curiosity and play. Now it's becoming the like, wow, oh, here I am again and I wonder what's gonna happen this time and what is this gonna feel like? And if I'm deeply listening to myself, I can hear myself again. So long little playground journey that I'm coming back to myself when, all the time.
Michael (00:31:57):
I'm so relating to that metaphor that you're using because it, it is fun. And I'm recognizing that when you said, you know, this is something that, it's a journey that's never gonna end, that is so in profoundly true for all of us. And like in this moment right now, I'm thinking what do I and we need more of? And what do I and we need less of? And right now as we're talking, I'm stimulated by your playground metaphor because I'm recognizing and remembering that it's been a while since I've, because the seasons are changing and I used to go meditate with the sun and it's been three weeks since I've sat out with the son. Uh oh. No wonder I've been feeling a little bit off lately. Michael needs to now bring himself back to the playground in his sunroom.
Jenny (00:32:49):
What a great reminder. Yeah.
Michael (00:32:52):
Yeah. And, and receive, uh, myself that way. If the listeners are at all intimidated by the word meditation, I know that a lot of my clients are intimidated by that word because they think it, they have projections of people owning for an hours and hours on end. And am I gonna need to, you know, give over my life and for, you know, my whole day to meditation? No, I'm gonna put out a, a little bit of a challenge and invitation might be a better word to, for you to ask yourself, you know, what do I need more of and what do I need less of? And I'd be willing to bet that it's something along the lines of what I just shared, your version of that. So commit to doing, uh, you know, five minutes of just silencing your mind. And in fact, this is something I do in my programs, this is how I go into meditation. This is my version of meditation. It's a very slow, purposeful exhale. And for those of you that are listening and scared about meditation, I'm here to reassure you that what I just did, a ten second exhale that is as powerful on meditation as a 60 minute meditation. So let's commit to doing something along those lines.
Luke (00:34:16):
As someone who teaches meditation, I had to throw a bit more in here, especially as was brought up in the context of what we need less of and what we need more of. So let me start there. Less of and more of, we could look to the service answers, less distractions, uh, less of my schedule, maybe more exercise, more time management, less stress, more rest, more happiness. But let's get a little bit deeper. What do we really need and why? Whether it's time in the sunroom, the yoga studio, meditating time and nature, or whatever your playground happens to be. Those are all strategies, meaning they are what we do because of what we're trying to connect to underneath them. These are strategies that are meant to connect us to what we're really seeking. They are also part of some process that helps us drop in more deeply to that state that we've been trying to connect to.
Whether that be peace or calm, joy, ease, so on. Well, I set the stage because meditation has many, many forms and more on that in a second. But what we really need to understand is why, why do we meditate? Well, let's start with why we don't meditate is there are so many excuses as to why people don't meditate. I'm too busy, my mind is too busy. I can't just sit there. I don't have time for that. That just slows me down. Or I have too much to get done right now. My favorite. It's that it just makes you too content and you lose motivation and drive. Well, to be perfectly honest with you, how do I know some of these myths and these excuses? Well, I've made pretty much every single one of them. I was not somebody who was an avid meditator, wasn't something that I believed was gonna be right for me.
And those that I could see doing meditation, it was almost like they were other than me. They were different than me. And I literally couldn't put myself in their shoes or certainly not in their pose. Cause I could never get into that folded knee position. And so anyway, all of these are myths and near all of them are reasons you may actually really need meditation. So let's get clear as to what meditation is and why meditation is important, what we might be really after when we undertake a meditation practice. So meditation in any of its many forms helps us to restore your central nervous system. It helps you to declutter your mind, to help you recenter yourself, settle emotions and so on. Meditation is linked through various research studies to improve mental clarity and agility, creativity, happiness, stress reduction, emotional stability, and feelings of fulfillment, peace, and joy.
Now remember, this is not a magic pill though because it does require work. And the reason so many end up not pursuing meditation or giving up on it is because meditation asks you to sit with yourself and to sit with yourself through the discomfort. You see meditation tests, but it also builds resilience because in that quiet you are brought face to face with just how much is stirring within you. And initially that's just simply not comfortable at all. In fact, I've worked with numerous clients on meditation and several who experience anxiety. And for a brief period they tell me that it feels like their anxiety rises. And then as we talk about what's going on, what they realize is that their anxiety isn't actually getting any worse. It's just that they're getting more present to how much their anxiety is actually being felt and experienced within the whole of their system.
They're actually getting present to it fully and turning towards it. And yet that's why we need meditation. You see, it isn't to bliss out, although that honestly can be a very nice side effect. It isn't to escape in any way. It's a tool that builds mental, emotional, and spiritual strength as you learn to turn towards and work with what is instead of turning away. So now let me clarify what meditation can be. You see, meditation can be anything from a conscious breath to more robust breath work. It can be feeling into your body connecting somatically. It can be mantra based or it can be more contemplative. Meditation can also be approached through forms of yoga even running, or ways of mindfully being in nature. The point is that meditation does not need to be sitting on a cushion with legs crossed in near impossible position for most of us, while chanting, umm, it doesn't need to look like that.
It doesn't need to sound like that. So a little bit about my journey, you see, my first introduction to meditation was through TM or transcendental meditation, which is a focused, unique mantra to each person who just quietly whisper in your mind the mantra and allow that to hold your focus. And it did. It did wonders to keep my mind focused on that mantra as a tool. While my body and ultimately my mind relaxed and brought in tremendous peace knees, I wanted to keep going though. And one of my next explorations was more contemplative. In Tibetan, the word for meditation is gom, which simply means to become familiar with the mind. You see, when you sit in meditation, what this means is it teaches you to observe the mind so that you can begin to see the magic tricks as well as the chaos of what the mind does.
You can start to see its patterns, including the patterns that it has, the conditioning that it has for its desire to be safe, to be right, and for wanting certainty. You can see all the ways that it tries to avoid any pain or discomfort as opposed to really looking at them. And that you can see all the gyrations your mind will put you through in response to any of those being there or not being there for you. After I moved past some of the contemplative forms, I took on a deeper form of mindfulness. Now mindfulness, and for me it was specifically a more body-based or somatic approach to mindfulness meditation. And this brought a completely different level of connection to my body as both a source of intelligence, a source of release, as well as an instrument that could connect deeply to all that was around me.
That led to me pursuing compassion based mindfulness practices because that then opened my heart immensely and dramatically raised my levels of empathy. The more that we get into the body, the more we can feel and the more that we can feel, the more that we connect to all that's around us, including our closest relationships, well really any relationships to be honest. And so that took me even deeper into my meditation practice as well as some of the teaching that I've done. I'll be honest, I have tried all sorts of other things. I've tried chanting, I've tried drumming. I have certainly used nature as my meditation guide as well. And so through all of it, I have found a series of tools that fit me and that I'm able to turn into my meditation practice. You see, meditation doesn't look the same for me every day, and it doesn't look the same for every person that's out there.
That's why there's so many different forms. And so for me, I found a tool set that I could use to deepen my practice. And I vary my tools and practices based on what I might need at any given time. My day does not look the same, my practice does not look the same day after day after day. And the way I developed my practice to be a regular ritual was simply committing to meditate for five minutes a day. That's it. Just five minutes. First, because it's an easy commitment, it's a virtual no-brainer. I can't argue my way out of saying I don't have time for five minutes to meditate. And I also know that just sitting for the first five minutes, those are the toughest five minutes. And often I would end up sitting for much longer than that. So just set a simple goal, just that first little micro commitment that you can make.
It can even just be 10 deep, full inhales and exhales with your attention on your breath. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that to get started. So start there. Set your intention on sitting through any of the discomfort, even if the initial discomfort is simply sitting and just being, not doing for five minutes a day, let it grow from there because this is a practice that's gonna help you have that less stress, less distraction, less mental chatter, less self-defeating thoughts, less attachments and blind spots and so on. This is a practice that's gonna help you to have more patience, more presence, more connection, more self-compassion, more clarity, creativity, and more joy. All right, let me jump off my soapbox and maybe I should chill out a little bit and sit in meditation too for a moment. Because obviously I'm a fan of meditation. The key question is this, what will be the practice that you are willing to prioritize for your own mental, emotional and spiritual wellbeing? That's the practice that I want you to undertake. Many ways to do that in meditation. There's other vehicles out there as well, but the point is create that practice. Prioritize your mental, emotional and spiritual wellbeing. So let's jump back into this quiet revolution with Michael and Jenny.
I think so much of what emerges is difficult to put into words because it is a, it's a felt experience. And to use language we're all very familiar with. There is a resonance that we begin to connect to. It's as if we feel ourselves coming back into harm and any back into that harmonic, you know, sense of our own vibration with what's unfolding for ourselves. It is really, truly felt that way from the core of who we are. And when you said integrated truth, what I heard as you described the rest of this is how I would explain it, is that curiosity and playfulness or play are no longer three levels deep because it, you now see that that's what you bring into any situation as opposed to how so much of us, how so many of us orient to what is this situation giving to me?
Like, is this a situation where I feel like I can be curious, I feel like I can be playful. And instead it's you recognizing the, you know, the co-creative power that you are, that we all are. And bringing that forward, allowing that through into whatever the experience happens to be. And it may be that some of those qualities resonate more deeply when you're on the merry go round, whereas some of these qualities come out more when you're on the swing set or on the slide or what have you. And that's where all of a sudden we're creating from our being because it's just pouring out into us. And that it's for introverts, if I tie it back here, quiet is crucial for allowing that to emerge and be felt and seen and then figuring out how do I wanna integrate that As I bring that back into active living. For extroverts, I believe this to be true is that in that relationship there may be things that are almost like a mirror.
Things that ping that all of a sudden we pick up on, but we now need to bring it, if we're extroverted, we now do to bring that back into the silence so that we can really truly test, is that something that was genuine, I connected to, is it true for me? What does that mean for me? How do I wanna let that permeate my, my sense of being and the way I wanna show up and once again, bring it back out. And the introverts who are bringing it back out, it is then still figuring out the external, the outer relationship side of how do these, you know, kind of interplay with others that I begin to interact with. And how do I kind of complete that, that cycle, uh, which is probably more of a, uh, of a looping mobius stripper infinity strip than it is, uh, an actual circle in the way that it weaves around. And so it's just, I highlight it because there is something I want us to be so aware of is that we create so much of our life from the way that we interact and what it is that we bring forward. And yet because of the way that we're oriented, both from societal conditioning, the shoulds, the expectations, as well as even our physical senses is that we spend most of our time sensing out and letting that come into us as opposed to sensing in and letting that come out of us.
Jenny (00:46:52):
Yeah. That resonates with me a lot. And, uh, I'll add to it and say that a younger version of myself would find a lot of psychological safety and comfort and what I thought was stability in being in solitude. And I wasn't necessarily seeing that in my external world because I was waiting for the conditions to be set for me. I was waiting for the people who I was interacting with to be inclusive and to treat me a certain way. And, you know, I was approaching it with a lot of judgment to be completely honest. And so when I was able to see that I had the power to create that safety for myself, not only by myself, but when I'm with others as well, that helps me to live a more integrated life so that I'm not trying to be two different people when I'm by myself or I'm with others. I can still experience safety and feel confident in the way that I'm showing up even when I'm around other people the same way that I do when I'm by myself.
Michael (00:48:08):
Jenny, you're describing something so powerful. Like we don't have to wait. We create our own sense of safety. And you're really describing what I see a lot is that there's a healthy introversion, which is what you're describing, not waiting, and then there is unhealthy introversion where we feel like we have to hold our true selves back because we're worried about how people are gonna react to us or being judgmental.
Jenny (00:48:34):
Light and shadow sides to both really. As someone who may be more naturally extroverted may be gravitating towards not embracing that quiet and solitude, because that's just in their nature.
Luke (00:48:50):
The other piece that was coming up for me, Jenny, in, in hearing you describe what you're, you've been going through and, and what's servicing and what you're connecting to, was that as we begin to sort through what really kind of resonates deeply for us and starting to draw from that power and recognize what it is that we can bring in and we can create from, from that place, we get so much clearer about how we can communicate some of our needs to others very often as opposed to, like you said, when we're looking for the conditions, the situations to be right than everything's out here. And we're again, not trying to create and cultivate the conditions and situations around us. We're just kind of waiting.
Jenny (00:49:31):
Letting it happen to us.
Luke (00:49:32):
We have it, oh, this one isn't right, so I'm gonna go over here. And yet at some point, once that begins to make sense of, well no, I've actually, I've got a role like in creating that and I can now go to my relationships and ask for what I need. Now, you're not gonna ask for the same thing maybe professionally that you might from your partner. It, it's gonna be different needs from different places, but you get clearer and clearer and clearer as to the way in which you wish, wish to engage and recognize that, well I can ask for this because this is just part of who I am. And so I can, I can share that, I can share what my intention is behind it. I can share how I'm coming at this and I can even ask them what do they need?
And that's okay too. We can kind of co-create this all together so that we are working together consciously, transparently, as opposed to just waiting for the conditions to be magically right for us at any given time. And I think one of the ways of getting at those needs is, Michael, what you asked before, what do you need more of right now? What do you need less of right now? And I, you know, asking yourself that question on a, those questions on a frequent basis reveals so much of where you are on that cycle. Right? Because it's not always the same needs and it is gonna change. And we, that's really what I kinda was hoping was gonna come out of this conversation is for us to build some awareness of the fact that we're on the spectrum, we're on the compendium of constant movement through these different cycles and how do we check in with that so that we can understand balance today looks like this.
What I need more of is this, what I need less of of that. Tomorrow it may be different, next week it may be different, but the more that we check in with those things, we can better find our rhythms, our cycles, and then we get better at communicating that with others. So it's a, it's an ongoing relationship and it's, it's shared. I'm curious for both of you, just real quickly to revisit a little bit of that boundaries conversation. And the reason being is that if we are to move more and more of what we're connecting to in the quietude of what it is that is emergent, we do need to understand how do we bring that out and what are some of the boundaries in terms of making sure we have time to orchestrate our balance. And I'm curious what that looks like for both of you today. Um, Michael, I wanna turn to you because you were just, you were just sharing the example, right? Of being out in the, in on the wonderful land that you are, but also being somebody who does crave that social side of things. And so how do you find that balance and where do you need to set boundaries to make sure that it's more fluid?
Michael (00:52:15):
To me, in order to create a boundary for myself, and I've seen this in those that I work with too. There's one really important energy that we need to embody and live. And that is the energy of permission and giving ourselves permission. When we are not creating boundaries in the way that our true self might be asking us to create boundaries. It's usually because we are not giving ourselves permission to do more of something or less of something. And it's usually often around early childhood experiences, the way that we grew up traumas in our past and, and the fears that are attached to that. Just using myself as an example, I'm out here in the country and it's wonderful and I love my mountains and I'm feeling a call to the water to stay in balance and I'm feeling a call not only to the water, but to be social around the water.
So I'm giving myself permission to spend money on taking a trip and getting some yoga teacher training and going to some place like Bali. That's kind of what I have in mind where I can be social and be, receive something new. And I have to give myself permission to create that adventure so that I can receive more of the balance that I'm craving, which is both the introspection and then also receiving. I don't know if paradox is the right word. It's an interesting, uh, dynamic. What I'm seeking is, I'm seeking introversion, but in the context of other people in, in an adventure of some type. Right?
Jenny (00:54:03):
Totally. I love that.
Michael (00:54:04):
That's what's coming up for me, Luke.
Luke (00:54:05):
Collective solitude.
Jenny (00:54:07):
Ooh, yeah.
Michael (00:54:10):
So I invite the listeners and uh, to, you know, just ask yourself what is it that I need to give myself permission to do in order to answer the question, what do I need more of? What do I need less of? It always, it's usually there's that middle man that's giving yourself permission.
Jenny (00:54:28):
Yeah. Such a great reminder. That's really good. I think that for myself, a couple things are coming up. One of them is just a reremembering of a really important revelation that I had early on in my personal development journey. And it was around allowing there to be space in between the stimulus and my reaction to situations or relationships or whatever, whatever I was interacting with in my life. Because I was very driven by my reactions. And if you were to ask me what my boundaries were at that time, I'd be like, I don't know what you're talking about. There is no separation between me and this situation, you know, and so identifying that there could be space that that was even a possibility was really, really important for me. And so in that space then I'm able to take a pause and be reflective and choose how I want to respond or react to that interaction that I'm having.
And when I'm choosing, I start to notice patterns of here's what I gravitate towards more, here's what I gravitate towards less. Oh, this is actually a boundary for me. And now I'm aware of that because I gave myself the space to explore that. I can't cite it correctly, but I think that I remember Brene Brown saying that boundaries are the space where I can love myself and love you at the same time. And so I had a lot of lessons that I was able to learn through the relationships that I was having with my family and my significant partners to identify what my boundaries were. And now I see opportunities for identifying and reinforcing my boundaries in every relationship that I have. And that includes with the relationship with myself because I am always changing. And there may be times where like we're saying, you know, in order to maintain equilibrium and balance, one day my boundary might be one thing and the next day I'm feeling much more fluid. And that boundary is not as rigid as it was before and then it might go back, and that's perfectly okay. And then, you know, as Michael brought in, like giving myself permission to change my mind and have there be fluidity there was really important to me, giving myself the permission slip.
Luke (00:57:19):
I recognize and, and resonates so deeply with the both, with, uh, both of you have said. And I recognize that even for myself, there is this being able to speak to whatever it is that is rising in me. If I use this in relationship to others at the moment, where I can sort of ask for what I need or share what it is that is coming up, but do so in a way that is meant from a place of, of transparency, meant from a place of vulnerability, that is meant for, from a place of asking for help. I so don't resonate with, uh, that phrase of speaker truth. Right. Speaker truth is like, I'm gonna share my opinion. Screw you. And it's, so, I'm, I'm making a very clear distinction of, of how we speak up, but do so from this place of vulnerability, of humility.
Of gentleness, of kindness, of inviting and welcoming other people into what it is that you have to share. So that you were working ideally together, but if not, you've at least been able to share it from a very heartfelt place. For me, it's funny because when Michael, you said, you know, the, the energy of permission and very specifically, sometimes we don't take that or give that permission to ourselves based on healing and, and maybe trauma or childhood and things like that. I'd laugh because I mean, this, this came up for me when, when you spoke 45 minutes or so ago of I remember so clearly. I mean, I literally would have relatives chase me around the house to say hello and hug me because I couldn't.
Jenny (00:58:54):
Yes.
Michael (00:58:55):
Yes.
Luke (00:58:55):
Like, oh, stop, stop. You gotta come here. Come on, let's go. I wouldn't give, literally wouldn't give myself permission later in life to take that space and just say, I don't need to be on right now, or I'm not ready for that right now. I'll be there in a couple of minutes.
Michael (00:59:08):
This is something I think that is ubiquitous. We can all, those of us that, that identify as having that introverted part of us, I know, like relatives chasing you around the house, my, my version of that was at my, uh, seventh birthday party. It was this big, big to-do. My mother and father planned it for a long time. They put a lot of energy and effort into it. It was, they hadn't done this before. So it was this big thing and I was so overwhelmed. I just went off and read a book in the corner in the room and I was all by myself and my parents came in, they're like, what are you doing? Right? And that was, made me feel like there was that judgment there. Like, it's not okay. And, and that was when I started going the other way. Like, oh, I need to please my parents. I need to be, uh, active even when I don't want to be.
Jenny (01:00:03):
This was wrong for me to be doing this. Yeah.
Michael (01:00:06):
Right? I think we've all had those moments like that. So thank you for bringing that up, Luke.
Luke (01:00:11):
It stems from that energy of permission and what you said, you know, are, are some of those patterns from our past that prevent ourselves from giving that permission. And I think that's one of the biggest things that, that I wanna leave people with today is this idea of, number one is if you can ask for what you need or recognize what you need from that place of, of gentleness, of vulnerability that I was describing a moment ago, is to be able to step into that space of how can you give yourself permission to do more of, to do less of whatever it is that you need. And put voice to that, to express that. And how can we honor that for others as well? How can we invite others into that space or the space that they need? Because then all of a sudden, again, you, God, how many times am I gonna keep saying this?
We get back to the village, it's time for us to remember we're in the village together. And how do we start supporting each other that way again, and this is one of those ways, and permission is huge, understanding that everybody has their different cycles of balance that they go through. And I say cycles of balance because balance is not static. It changes, it evolves. So all these things we talked about today, the more that we give ourselves permission to identify that and live that way for ourselves and give permission to others to find that and embrace that all from the healthy side of the spectrums, not the unhealthy sides of avoidance and distraction, everything else, the more that all of a sudden some incredible healing can take place. But it also is a gateway to creativity and innovation and imagination and like all the big things that we need to solve in this world. They can come from this space. And we can co-create that together.
Michael (01:01:52):
And we can co-create it when we're, uh, in the bathtub or the shower and, and having the, that's where the all of the creation ideas, I don't know about you. And that's where it comes from. For me, when I, when I have, give myself the space, like, or when I'm driving that type of thing.
Jenny (01:02:07):
I love driving. Long road trips.
Michael (01:02:09):
And I really love what you just said because it comes from a place of humility. You said that earlier. And it's so important. We can feel it in what you're saying, that we come at this from a place of humility in our relationships with others, not with fighting or judgment.
Luke (01:02:27):
I wanna thank the, these two wonderful, divinely human and humanly divine beings that are both with me here today. To Michael, what you said before, these are the conversations, right? This is what I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoy engaging in. They are food for the soul. And so I wanna thank both of you for sharing this space. Jenny, I wanna thank you for raising this conversation, Michael, for adding the, the experience and wisdom that you always bring, that you both bring in the way of energy and smiles and heartfelt authentic nature. Thank you guys for being here.
Jenny (01:02:58):
Yeah. It was a lovely walk.
Michael (01:02:59):
Thank you Luke, and thank you Jenny.
Jenny (01:03:02):
Yes. It was awesome to connect.
Luke (01:03:05):
Thank you for joining me for this episode of On This Walk. Before signing off, please subscribe to the show and don't miss a single episode. Also, please rate and review us. This helps me greatly in getting the word out about this show. And remember, this is just the start of our conversation. To keep it going, ask questions, add your own thoughts, join the ongoing conversation by just heading over to onthiswalk.com and click on Community in the upper right hand corner. It's free to join. Until we go on this walk again, I'm Luke Iorio. Be well.