029 - The Edge of Not Being Enough
Today’s walk is a special one. We’re not just diving into a topic; we’re diving into an edge, a sharp one at that. I am talking about the edge of ‘not enough’ and the many forms it takes; like not good enough, not strong enough, not smart enough, not fast enough, not young enough, the list goes on as to how it chooses to appear before us. Ultimately, this not enough-ness takes on the form of familiar questions mainly, who am I? and subsequently, who are you?
On this walk, I invited back a familiar face from Episode 17, Genevieve Georget, to discuss at length, this feeling of not enough-ness as we begin to respond to our lives and respond to whatever spotlight is shown our way.
In This Episode
(04:31) – How today’s conversation emerged from Genevieve’s new magazine.
(08:54) – The dilemma of sharing or not sharing.
(11:18) – On honoring our own stories as well as other people’s.
(15:22) – What’s the difference between vulnerability and fragility?
(20:20) – Diving into a writer’s journey on facing the question of ‘who am I?’
(28:40) – Why I often held back my vulnerability and openness.
(35:45) – The importance of not retreating when feeling vulnerable.
(40:50) – The editor side of Genevieve and finalizing drafts of storytellers.
(53:05) – Living in a world that leans into gentleness.
(57:05) – The reason why I’ve done coaching, guiding, and why I started On This Walk.
Notable Quotes
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“I think it also highlights that vulnerability is a learned skill. The more we practice it, the easier it becomes, more comfortable. We become in that space of sharing those things. Of course, it's super normal if all you have ever known is superficial conversation and it’s completely normal to feel afraid of how this piece of yourself, of your heart is going to land especially with strangers. But the more you do it, the easier it becomes. The more you start to see that people are actually very open and receptive and grateful for that vulnerability but also you begin to have space. The more you practice it, the more you create space between yourself and other people’s responses to it. So, on both levels it becomes easier, it becomes a love bubble that you create around yourself. The right people are drawn to it. The people who aren’t or who are critical, you start to care less.”
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“This isn’t simply about sharing your stories as a writer or being vulnerable in your art. This is about us finding that edge within our lives. I’ve often held back that vulnerability and openness because of my own self judgment; those feelings of not enough-ness or shame or even just not wanting to look as if I was clueless and as confused as I actually was feeling. I feared embarrassing myself or being judged, by holding back that often perpetuated whatever the situation was for longer than it needed to be. I’d walk around with that feeling of constriction and dissonance within me because I knew that I had retreated. That I hadn’t spoken to whatever was there at the moment. For me, I hid. And then I beat myself up for not having the courage to learn. Ultimately, I needed to find that edge and start stepping past it.”
Our Guest
Genevieve Georget is a writer and photographer from Ottawa, Canada that believes in cultivating space for vulnerability, truth, authenticity, and storytelling. In her last two books, Solace: A Journal of Human Experience (2019) and Her Own Wild Winds (2016), Gen explored grief, pain, love, and inspiration. Genevieve finds joy in her life with her husband, her kids, and her golden retriever. Her newest project is her new magazine called Gray and Granite, which she describes as a story teller’s journal, a place for stories to land, life to be shared and connections to be made.
Resources & Links
On This Walk
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Luke (00:01):
Welcome to On This Walk, a show about the winding journey of life in all its realness. I'm Luke Iorio. Please join me and my brilliant heart-centered guests each week, as we look to navigate this journey more consciously and authentically. Uncovering how to tap back into that sense of connection with self, with soul and with something bigger than ourselves. Now let's go on this walk.
Hello everyone, and welcome once again to On This Walk. Today, let's see, I'm gonna say that we're gonna dive into a topic, but it really isn't simply a topic. We're gonna dive into an edge, and this is a sharp edge at that. And I will be honest as an edge, uh, as a lot of things are on the show, they're an edge that I have struggled with through various parts of my life. Every time that I think, like I, I think I've got this one behind me, I then find that next edge of expansion.
And sure enough, it just comes back. And so what am I talking about? What is this edge? It's the edge of not enough. It's that edge of not being good enough, strong enough, smart enough, important enough, old enough, young enough, however centered enough, right? However it chooses to appear for us. It's this feeling of not enoughness as we begin to respond to our life and, and respond to maybe what spotlight is starting to be shown our way. And there's this nuance that came up as, as I was getting into a conversation with one of my new favorite people, and we were getting into this conversation and how this not enoughness can actually appear. And so let me share one of the specific ways that came up and, and has also appeared for me, because this not enoughness actually takes on the form of a very familiar question for us.
And it's that question of who am I? Another way of asking this might just be, who are you? And I mean that in terms of who are you to, who are you to run this podcast? Who are you to share these stories? Who are you to be in that leadership role? Who are you to matter? And when I really sit with that, it's something that has followed so many of us around for a long time. I get into these conversations with clients and friends and colleagues, and I keep hearing them question, but who am I to do this? Who am I to share this? Who am I to teach this? Who am I to talk about this? And there's this question that keeps running through us, and it keeps hitting that, that thorn of not enoughness within us. And so it's this question of, who are you or who am I that we can answer and ask from so many different ways, from so many different levels of energy and awareness we can ask this question.
And so today we're gonna be walking with that sense of who are we to? Who are we to be and do all we are, and to share that with our worlds. And so, like I was saying, this came about as I was having a chat, a catch up with one of my new favorite human beings that is out there. And we were exchanging just some updates and talking about what might be some ideas for another conversation. And so you may remember my guest, you may have recognized her from episodes such as episode number 17, Metabolizing Our Stories. And of course I'm talking about Gen Georget. Genevieve is a writer and photographer from Ottawa, Canada who believes in cultivating space for vulnerability, truth, authenticity, and storytelling. In her last two books, Solace: A Journal of the Human Experience, which was in 2019 and Her Own Wild Wins, 2016, Gen explored grief, pain, love, and inspiration. Solace was also named Ottawa Faces 2020 Book of the Year.
Currently she's working on a, a magnificent healing centered project. We talked a little bit about that at the end of our last show. And she finds joy in her life with her husband, her kids, and her golden retriever. And I will say that this conversation emerged as we were talking about one of her newest projects, which I really, really, really strongly encourage you to check out, which is her new magazine, which is called Gray and Granite. And she describes that as a storyteller's journal, a place for stories to land, life to be shared and connection to be made. That is downright delicious. And you can absolutely hear and see and feel why that's in complete alignment with what we're doing here on On This Walk. Well, that's it. I'm not gonna give any further preface. I wanna dive in today. So Gen, welcome back On This Walk.
Genevieve (04:10):
Hello. Thank you. It's so fun to be back and connecting with you again.
Luke (04:14):
Thank you. Let's maybe kick off with what led to this conversation, which is that you and I were connecting and you were sharing about Gray and Granite. And I had asked you a bit of what you were starting to notice with the next round of, of stories that were coming in. And I was wondering maybe if you could pick it up from there, because that's how we sort of developed this conversation for today.
Genevieve (04:33):
Yeah, sure. Well, it's interesting because in the very final page of Gray and Granite, I actually wrote a paragraph about how every storyteller starts somewhere. Every artist starts somewhere, right? A first canvas, the first words, the first lyrics were all new at some point in time. And I wrote it as an invitation to be compassionate, to be kind, to be open with the recognition that there were people sharing pieces of themselves within that magazine that had never done this before. And in a world that can feel really harsh sometimes right now, that's almost waiting for us to trip and fall, I really wanted to say the words out loud. Like, this is hard for people to do sometimes. And these people have been brave enough to stop up and share a piece of their story. And I'm asking you to hold those stories with grace regardless of what you may think or feel or what your opinion of it may be.
That being said, now there's all these beautiful new submissions coming in for the next issue and they continue to kind of trickle in for future issues. And I'm noticing this pattern of so much discomfort. Like, I really, really want to. And oh my goodness, it's so scary. It has all this, like, I can watch sort of the internal battle happening within people over, I feel uncomfortable with the vulnerability, but I really wanna share it. And one of the things that keeps coming up is like, but it's just my story. Like, is it really that big a deal? And I don't really know if it's like worth putting out there and to the world. And this pattern keeps showing up time and time again, which I think is such an interesting part of the human experience, right? Like, it's so weird being human. Cause we, we feel these different tugs on ourselves that have to do with like, you know, that sense of belonging and that sense of acceptance. And we want our stories to be shared. And yet we consistently wonder, yeah. But I'm just this average person.
Luke (07:04):
There's so many different things that are kind of running through me because it's, it's such this dichotomy of the society we find ourselves in. Because on the one hand, we've got whole social media platforms that are devoted to share everything. Even, you know, everything, more than we all want to know at any given time. And yet, it's the things we really wanna share. It's the things that are more intimate. It's the things that are more deeply connected, the things that have moved us that we then tend to question of who am I to put this out there? And what it also conjured up is you were, you know, describing some of the submissions and, and this kind of relationship that we have to, the way that we're sharing these stories is we forget that the roots of who we are as human beings were the villages and tribes that sat around the fire doing nothing but sharing stories.
And that was our way of communing. That was our way of getting to know each other. I mean, I think of, of some of the traditions inside of indigenous cultures and eco based cultures where like every morning began with telling the stories of what the dream time was like, what did you dream of? What was, and, and it was to think nothing of, well, let me share this one because it helps me process, it helps me to move through something. It helps me to relate to this thing, this experience differently. That's one. And the, the fact that we are changed by hearing other people's stories, right? It just, it seeps into us and we need more of that. We need more of that vulnerability. We need more of that inspiration than I think ever before. So that, that we can kind of come back together again in different ways. And yet there's still that moment of, do I really share this? Do I really put this out there?
Genevieve (08:54):
I think it also highlights though that vulnerability is a learned skill. Right? Like the more we practice it, the easier it becomes, the more comfortable we become in that space of sharing those things. Right. Of course it's super normal if all you've ever known is superficial conversation. And it's completely normal to feel afraid of how this piece of yourself, of your heart is gonna land, especially with strangers. But the more you do it, the easier it becomes. Right? The more you start to, well, I think for starters, the more you start to see that people are actually very, very open and receptive and grateful for that vulnerability. But also you begin to have space, you create, the more you practice it, the more you create space between yourself and other people's responses to it. So on both levels it kind of becomes easier. It almost becomes this like beautiful, I'm at the risk of sounding super corny, but this like love bubble that you create around yourself, right? So the right people are drawn to it and the people who aren't or who are critical, you kind of start to care less.
Luke (10:22):
I love the fact that you say vulnerability is a skill. It's something that we develop. But as we begin to share more, it's almost as if we begin to honor our own stories more and respect, you know, respect them to hold them with that honor, to hold them with that love. And what that also means is that we therefore begin to honor other people's stories more. And so if somebody is going to be critical of us, it's okay because that's their experience. And we can hold space for the fact that, I don't know, maybe their experience, maybe they haven't shared it, but I know that they have an experience that's behind whatever it is that's going on right now. And because I can see more of my experience, I can see the times that I've been through that I can see the way others are going through that. And I can see the way that this person who may not agree with me today, who may be very critical of me today also has their story. And I can hold space for that differently.
Genevieve (11:18):
And you know what that's making me think of actually is that, and this will sound kind of maybe counterintuitive, but that criticism in a way is an act of vulnerability in its own right. And it takes me back to one of the best pieces of advice that I ever got as my platform started to grow was from a good friend of mine who was a pastor. And I met him through, he was also an officiant for many of the weddings that I was doing. We were out for dinner one night and he said to me, he said, Gen, just always remember that people are always responding to us based on our most recent hurt.
And that really changed the way that I received more negative feedback. And of course, there's people where you just outright are like blocking this person, right? You protect your space and you're allowed to do that. But there was also moments where you could see that hurt coming through in their words. And that in and of itself is an act of vulnerability. And they may not have found a way to articulate that. It may be projected, which isn't necessarily how we wanna go about the world. But it, as you mentioned, it does give sort of like this sense of like, what would love do in this situation? And there has been moments when we've been really able to turn that narrative around by simply approaching that person and being like, I'm really sorry you feel this way. Did something happen recently? Right. And then that opens up that, that space for them as well.
Luke (13:10):
What you're connecting me to, and it, maybe it's because I'm off the heels of, of having recently been out in Sedona with my, one of my, my core teachers, central teachers in, in my life right now, Carissa, you'll all be meeting her very soon actually, in relation to when this episode is airing. And one of the things that she has shared is to have us reflect on that difference between vulnerability and fragility. Right. Because we very often, when we feel that criticism for having put our story out, we're already in that state where we're questioning ourselves, perhaps where we weren't quite sure of what we're putting out there. And it's, there's a difference in being vulnerable, which really is a strength that is, is, you know, willing to show more and more of who it is that we are and be open and honest about the experience of life that we're having.
But fragile means that we can crumble, that we can be broken. And so to what you just highlighted is that if that criticism comes in, and I'm going to respond to that criticism being very reactionary or, you know, connected to an emotional response of some kind and respond from that place as opposed to having returned to peace first, it's because I'm feeling fragile. It's cause I need that, that defense, I've gotta put up that protection. I've gotta put up that wall around me. Cause I'm, I'm feeling like I can be broken right now. And that's, you know, that's coming from that part of us that's still very much in fear and very much questioning of ourselves. And that's okay. We all go through those moments. And not to say that that's, I've been there on many occasion, and there are things that can still bring that out in me.
And there's this other vulnerable place, which is what I think you just described of, you know, what if we viewed this person who's coming to us in this way as also having just displayed vulnerability in their criticism because they're, they're probably admitting something that they're going through, whether their words match that or not. And so how can I just simply meet them from that place of love or peace or kindness? Let's just think about it very simply. How can I meet them from a place of kindness? You don't have to jump all the way to love. That's step two. Step three or step four, step five. Right. I'm curious just what comes up for you when you hear that juxtaposition of vulnerability and fragility and how you experience that?
Genevieve (15:21):
Well, I think it's a fine line, to be honest. There are days when I think the appropriate response is to put very strict boundaries around yourself in that space. You're like, I have full disclosure, there's been times, especially early on when my platform was growing and my husband would have to go on first and look, you know, especially if it was something about my kids or something very, very, very close to my heart, he would go on and he would delete things and he, you know, we, you have an ecosystem in place because it can shut you down. Right. That's the thing about vulnerability. And this is perhaps it's why I'm so passionate about holding people's vulnerabilities a certain way, because this might be a terrible comparison, but I, I almost think of it as like a person walking into a church the first time.
If they walk into a church and meet someone extremely judgmental and harsh, they may walk out of their and never come back again. And that could be the end of their relationship with that faith or whatever it may be. If a person gets enough courage to open themselves up with vulnerability and that vulnerability isn't met with judgment or criticism or harshness, you could shut that person down for a very long time, if not forever. Right. They may view that as like a very painful, unsafe thing to do. So to answer your question, I think having to understand where you are at first and realizing you don't always have to be the bigger person actually, that's taking me a very, very long time to learn. Because as a person who wants to lead with love, I have often felt like I have to go the entire distance. And it's only been in the past year where I've been able to say, actually you are here, there's room for you in this space. That being said, you need to be a decent human being while you're here. And it's not my job to constantly course correct people as they go. And so, yeah, there are, there are days where I'm just like, no, I do not have the capacity for this. And that's okay too. And then there's days where I have more ability to be like, please share more. I'd love to hear more about the story that's happening behind the scenes here.
Luke (17:59):
You know, you're highlighting also this element of knowing how to have what I'd call agile healthy boundaries. Right. And, and by agile, I mean those boundaries may look different today than they look tomorrow, than they look the next day. Right. And so for us to be able to check in with ourselves to know that today, you know what, I need a little bit more. I need to feel a little bit more of that coziness. And I, I love the example you give because if we're new to that church, if we're new to sharing our voice, if we're new to school. Right. Whatever the environment happens to be or whatever the thing is, there is a little bit more that we wanna focus on that's gonna support our encouragement and bringing and teasing that out of us until we have a stronger foundation under us.
And so to, to be able to be in those environments that support us in doing that, and then we can, we can keep going from there and keep going from there. I think that's, that's great for us to know of where we are in our evolution of that part of the journey so that we can surround ourselves with the support that's gonna help us really continue to own more and more of who we are and how we choose to express that in the world. And so to, to pair all of that up, I think is, is very, very important. And then to know that our boundaries don't need to be rigid. Right. It like, they are gonna change, they're gonna change as we grow. They're gonna change on the day, they're gonna change based on the hurt that maybe we just went through.
Right. And so to, to be gentle with ourselves as we we're also trying to be gentle with others when we're in that space. But boundaries, you know, those healthy boundaries are a very, very important part of this. I'm curious, you know, you just, because you just let us in on a little bit of, of some of those early days, I'm thinking of, you know, the, the writing that you have shared and how personal your books are. It's one of the things that I think I said in the first time we spoke is I find something very personal, very intimate about your writing. I can feel like what, what you're feeling in the way that you describe what you're going through. And so I'm curious of a little bit of your journey as you decided that you were ready to start putting the books out into the world of how you faced that question of, you know, who am I to, who am I to write these books? Who am I to share these stories? And to maybe take us through just a little bit of, of that window?
Genevieve (20:20):
Hmm. That's a very fun question. And the answer might surprise you because, so I think looking back, you know, it's a retrospect. I've had many moments in my life where someone has been like, oh, you know, I'd love it if you wrote a book sometime. Or, oh, this was really beautiful to read. And I never thought anything of it actually. Growing up, English is my second language. So I didn't actually study English until later in life, but my mother's a beautiful writer. She would take my notes from camp and she would scribble out with a red pen. Nope. There's a difference between there, there and there, and you gotta learn it and whatnot. And it wasn't until I started having this online platform that started sort of very organically growing. And it was very like-minded people. And to be completely honest, I didn't think they were there for how I was writing as much as what I was writing.
Now it has since been brought to my attention. You can be skilled in both and that's, but I don't, I don't have a background in English literature. I don't have, I almost failed high school English, so I'm not academically trained. I don't have a master's in fine arts or anything like that. But it was through the act of sharing little pieces at first. I started small, dipped my toe in the water. And it was honestly through this online community saying, no, Gen, you're actually a storyteller. Like, this is the skill you have and maybe you don't notice because it's just something that's always been a part of you. And I can honestly say, had it not been for this collective, I don't know that I would have necessarily pursued it in a bigger capacity because it was just something that I, I did.
And I never really thought of it as unique in any way. And it wasn't until other people reflected back to me. Yeah. And I think what was most meaningful to me, and this sort of ties back to our whole, who am I to share this story, when you share stories in community, what you start to realize is that it's really all of our stories. Like, it's such a cool thing because on one hand your story is entirely uniquely your own because it is your life and your perspective and your lens of seeing the world. So there is no other story like it in existence. And at the same time, you are sharing so many people's stories. Yeah. Because we have this shared experience of being human and sharing struggles. There's this piece in Eat, Pray, Love that I absolutely adore. And I've read it so many times where Elizabeth Gilbert talks about having talked with a bunch of refugees that had been in boats coming across the ocean and gone through like these unbelievable crisis and devastation.
And yet when they were going to counseling after all that kept coming up was like, but I like this guy. And he liked this other person. It was these very real human common, like even though their world had gone through so much upheaval, if you will, and they'd gone through so much drama at the end of the day, the stories they were holding onto was like, I was in this boat with this guy and I fell in love with him. That story fills my heart so much in the sense that like, the overlap of what that means to be human and to connect with each other is just, it's so strong that it's almost ridiculous in a way. Like almost.
Luke (24:44):
I think I've said it before, and you know, it's one of those, those catchalls but that which is most personal is typically universal. Right. We get into these really deep personal parts of who we are, but the reason why people become so moved is there's a thread in there that they just completely recognize in themselves. Even though the details are totally different, it doesn't matter. I wanna speak a little bit to what you described of, you know, the, the collective that, that you had put around you as part of just some of the writings of the sharing you were doing step at a time. It's so important for us to find those initial communities, groups, tribes that we can share into that do have the ability to reflect back to us so we can actually start to see ourselves even more completely with, with what can get shared back and, and mirrored back to us. And so it's, it's, you know, we're, we're talking about it in the form of, of writing in this context, but it's why I've spoken so often about things like circling and why I run the men's circle and everything else is because that's where all of a sudden somebody can step in and begin to really share the experience of life that they're going through.
And they can share it in a community that's gonna hold that space, that's gonna hold that vulnerability. And it's, they're gonna hold it with care, they're gonna hold it with gentleness, they're gonna hold it with acceptance. And then being able to mirror back of what, you know, what I experienced in hearing you talk and what I experienced in hearing you share what it is that you've gone through. And now all of a sudden we can, you know, find some of these universal patterns to underneath us. But we've held this space for this individual to step in and share that way. And I know through my own experiences of whether it be in circle or groups or working with a coach or a teacher or a retreat community, when you're able to share and have that level of acknowledgement come back to you when you share and then have somebody afterwards tap you on the shoulder and say, this is why this was so meaningful to me. Like this is, you have no idea what you touched in me. All of a sudden it gives you this recognition that I want to actually see a little bit beyond myself because there's something bigger going on here. And so to, for me to see the power of my own story, and not because it's has to be some big, grandiose story, but to see the impact of it, to see the fact that it did touch somebody in whatever it is that they have to be going through is so unbelievably important.
Before we go any further, I just want to speak a little bit to this edge of vulnerability. I'll go back to something I once heard in one of Brene Brown's talks. Consider yourself for a moment. And when you're about to be vulnerable, what's the story you're telling yourself about yourself in that moment? It's likely to be some form of vulnerability as weakness, or that I feel weak for whatever it is that I'm about to share for this thing that I've done or that I've gone through. And yet, any time you've heard someone else be vulnerable, whether it's in an intimate conversation or up on a stage in a talk or sharing within a group, you'd likely call them courageous, even strong. Yet, when we are in that moment of vulnerability, we tend to shrink backwards. Now, you're not gonna be completely open and vulnerable with all people in all situations, but are there conversations you hold back from having with your partner, your spouse, your loved ones, your teenage child?
Are there situations that feel too awkward to bring up with a friend or an issue with a colleague that is glaringly between the two of you that you won't address? You see, this isn't simply about sharing your story as a writer or being vulnerable in your art. This is about us finding that edge within our lives. I've often held back that vulnerability and openness because of my own self-judgment. Those feelings of not enoughness or shame or even just not wanting to look as if I was clueless or as confused as I actually was feeling. I feared embarrassing myself or being judged by holding back that often perpetuated whatever the situation was for longer than it needed to be. I'd walk around with that feeling of constriction and dissonance within me because I knew that I had retreated, that I hadn't stepped up, that I hadn't spoken to.
Whatever was there in the moment. For me, I hid, and that I'd beat myself up for not having had the courage to lean in. Ultimately I needed to find that edge and start stepping past it. So what did that look like? Well, I've shared this with my clients for years. There are these cross the line moments, meaning experiences that we intentionally lean into and show up differently because we know that if we do, we won't go backwards. We've crossed the line or the threshold into a whole new way of being and doing. In some instances, you might be able to recall areas of your life or specific relationships where you're withholding. You may be withholding your love or emotion or your time or your presence. We're not letting the other person just fully see you. Now, picture a few moments that you've had with this person or in this area of life when you know that you've held back, maybe you felt the fear at the edge of being vulnerable or more open and you know that you stepped back from it.
Next picture, what it would be like to instead be open and vulnerable about what you're experiencing, about what you're feeling, about what you're afraid of. Don't make this about the other person in any way, but solely about you, about your experience and what you need to share for you. Be honest with yourself and all that you're feeling is you envision that moment. And now last, when is another moment just like this likely to come up, plant that seed in your mind as to when and how this moment may reappear. And now you are ready to more intentionally cross the line. You can do the above for a few different circumstances, relationships, and you can begin where you feel most ready. And then bit by bit take on those moments that feel like they'd be bigger steps, but that would also create even bigger shifts for you as well.
I had to do this intentionally in my life looking at conversations I held back in even though I could feel that I was out of alignment in those particular moments. It's those relationships where I haven't felt aligned and yet I didn't speak up about what felt off, even with good friends and partners that I didn't let them see all of me. And then it felt like it was too late to go back. Well, I'm so very thankful I had support and that my journey brought me to a place where I could start stepping into those moments. And my life became so much more enriched and fulfilled and peaceful with deeper relationships that had love, intimacy and true connection at the center. That also then translated into serving my clients as well as my team. That worked for me even that much better. After this episode, take the time to plan your cross the line moments. You will be absolutely amazed at what this creates in your life. Now let's get back to a story specifically about one of those edges that got evoked in me as Gen shared our time together in this conversation.
I'll share it from the, it's funny cause I something in, in the way you were, you were sharing the step-by-step approach of, of how we begin to open up. Kind of brought me back to a time many years ago when I was speaking, I used to do a lot of speaking at one of our graduate trainings when I was at the institute. And, um, my business partner founder of iPEC, Bruce turned to me after a couple of these and he says, you know, listen, when you you speak, you've got a lot of energy. I can tell you've got a lot of passion, but you're not quite coming from your heart. Like you need to step more into your heart and share from that place. And of course he says this to me and the first thing through my mind is, you know, the, the scene from Jerry McGuire with Cuba Gooding Jr.
He turns to him. He goes, I'm all heart. I'm like, what are you talking about? I'm all heart. Don't you see me out there? Right. I don't know what he's talking about. And of course, you know, he, he knew exactly what he was talking about. And I happened to be then at the next graduate training and right before I've, I go up to, to teach a piece that actually has to do a little bit with storytelling. And I am talking with a couple of our graduates and they're asking about how they apply what we were, we were talking about in their lives, not just in the coaching practice. And I said, well interestingly enough, my wife actually just went through the beginning of, of the program and here's how she's using it as a teacher in an inner city school system with these kids are having these, these challenging dynamics with bullying and all this other struggle that they've been going through.
And as I'm telling the story, I'm starting to get choked up. And then the people I'm speaking to are starting to get choked up. And one of them starts crying and is, we're in the middle of this like really deep moment. And I hear one of my colleagues go, okay, Luke's back up on stage. We're gonna begin the training. Everybody come back to your seats. And I'm like, oh wow. We're gonna get, we're gonna go from here to there. And I walk up on stage cause it was a bigger, it was a bigger graduate program for this one. And I start to go into what I'm sharing and I start to get into this story. And at one point I mentioned my father is part of the story and my voice cracks. And I now recognize I'm at that point where I've got a choice to make.
Am I going to stay in this moment of vulnerability and in my heart and share from that place? Or am I gonna do what I've pretty much always done? Which is am I gonna step back for a moment, take a breath, and then talk like completely calm, cool and collected again. And thankfully that day I chose to do the former and I'm speaking with literally tears just like glaringly in my eyes and a couple of more voice cracks along the way as I'm talking. And I get to the, the end of what it was that I was, I was sharing at that particular moment. And I, now I pause and what felt like the longest silence of my life takes over in this room, which I think according to some friends was, you know, colleagues. It was all of about a second and a half, but it felt like an eternity.
And that I've received just this really, really wonderful warm appreciation and ovation for what it was that I just shared. And I even see one or two of my colleagues in the back that actually have tears in their eyes because they knew, they kind of knew what had just happened for me. Like they knew what had just come through. I share that because I think what's coming up for me is that we are gonna find these moments where we're on that edge of sharing and opening into that vulnerability. And at some point we need to choose not to retreat.
We need to choose to not back away from that. Especially if we think we're in a room, a writing space, a community, a group that some of that safety and acceptance has been cultivated. That's the time to lean in. That's the time to say, well let me give it a shot. This is like a safe playground. It's safe as I'm gonna find, lean in and see what then starts to emerge. And it's gonna give you like without, without an experience like that and many more along the way, I'm not here talking to you guys like this. I'm not, I'm not here doing this type of a show. It's sort of to use those moments to recognize those moments come up for us. And I think it's, you know, with Gray and Granite, it's using that as an example. I think that's some of the beauty of the forum that you're creating there for storytellers is because even though that's a, it's a publication, it's gonna go out, the community that's initially going out to are people who want to cheer you on. They wanna say, we wanna see your story, we want to hear it, we want, we wanna celebrate you for doing this and having this courage. And so it's just, it's, it's one of those things that to me it's, it's, we wanna keep recognizing these communities and finding ways of encouraging others to, to step into it because we just simply need more of this.
Genevieve (37:11):
Well, and that was the community that built me up. Right. They were the ones who held that space for me when I was dipping my toe in the water and trying to find my bearings and figure out who I was if I could lead this group. Right. So having the opportunity to offer that same space to them, to those who want to take that extra step feels so meaningful in so many ways. And watching them stand on that ledge and move forward and move back and move forward and move back until, until the point of no return comes where I'm like, okay, I'm hitting publish, here we go.
And there's so many fun back and forths that happened with them. But it's such an enlightening experience, I guess to be there again. Right. Because I've been doing it a long time now. It's been, gosh, 15 years that I've been able to practice vulnerability and it's a very humbling experience to watch people take those first steps again. Right. Like I often compare it to the, the wallflowers at, you know, the school dance. Right. There's the people who are there and are dancing and they're the first ones to step out. And so many people don't, but they still show up though. They're still there. Versus not having gone at all. And that means something. And the only reason that I was ever able to show up on the dance floor was because I kept getting invited even though I stood along the side for a really long time. Right. And I think when we create space for people to just stand on the side if they need to until they're ready, they will come out eventually.
Luke (39:13):
I love where that opens up, right. Is for us, even if we're, even if we're the ones that are still struggling to get on the dance floor, if we're still the ones struggling to answer that question of who am I to, to start inviting other people into it anyway. Right. And, and to, to invite other people to share, invite other people to express, to create that space so that others are open enough or feel that safety coming from you so that they can begin to express. Because if you can begin to open that space and you can begin to see others as part of that and sharing in that way, it just starts bringing it out of you. You're willing to then meet them in that ring. You're willing to meet them there. And it begins with, you know, somewhere that invitation needs to be made.
And so if you are not ready to accept the invitation, maybe you just start making it to start inviting others. Because it's the energy that's going into it. It's the energy that's creating that space that shapes the container that we feel more safe sharing into. And I guess the other thing that kind of popped up is that as you are working with some of the, these aspiring storytellers and writers that are submitting stories and we're, you know, you're getting to the point where it's, it's almost time to hit publish. What are you seeing, or maybe what are your conversations with them where you see something start to click, meaning that something in them is starting to shift where they're starting to feel more comfortable, maybe not confident, but more comfortable to say, yeah, I think I'm ready for you to share this. I'm ready for you to, to include me in what's going on. How does, what evolution, what shift do you see going on with them?
Genevieve (40:53):
I think the big piece right now, and, and this will be something that I will have to evaluate over time as I go on, but one side of me that most people don't get to see is the editor side of me. So most of my community sees my finished product and so they get the polished piece with the, you know, a typo here and there, but most people don't actually see this whole other side of me, which is developmental editing. Which is asking questions throughout your story and pulling things out and streamlining and helping you to mold it. So what generally happens is I get a very rough raw draft from someone who feels super hesitant. I have no idea if this makes any sense at all or if this is working or, and you can sense their nervousness in it.
And I'm doing a lot of, I say editing, but I prefer to refer to it as coaching because ideally, you want them to take away from it as well. Right. You don't just wanna be the person doing the work, but you wanna help cultivate them as a writer, as you're doing it. Right. So I like to go back and share with them, here's what I've taken from this piece and here's how I think if we maybe took this out but slow down a little bit and elaborated on this, then we could help bring your reader in. And I try to remind them as often as possible, like, this is your first point of contact with your reader. Right. Our brains know all the pieces and the peripheral vision, the people reading it might not. So how do we approach it from there?
And as we go back and forth and as we work on these pieces and as they start to become more refined, they start to see it with more clarity and they start to even understand their own story a little bit better. And then usually what happens, I send them a final draft, and they start to share it with someone very close to them. And then when they see that person's response, then let's go. Like, and they start to feel that it goes from something that feels jumbled and messy, that's been rumbling around in their head for a while, and then they work through it. Right. And, and I think that's part of what I love about coaching writers, is helping them to sort of like, here's the, the piece of stone. How do we strip away the rest to create the sculpture that's meant to come through. And so working with them, I think has really helped tipped those scales when people are feeling extra hesitant. I mean, obviously just the act of sending something in the first place means they're closer to the edge than not.
Luke (44:00):
Most definitely.
Genevieve (44:02):
Right? So it's again that they've been vulnerable and they've sent you something. What do you do now to help continue to cultivate that sense of safety and that sense of bringing it together.
Luke (44:14):
And it highlights again. And, you know, it's one of those, those phenomenon obviously just keeps coming up over and over and over again is we wanna look at a, a finished piece. The, the finished writing, the finished picture, the finished movie, whatever it is. And that's then the image of like, oh man, that was perfect. That's what I'm trying to strive for. I've gotta be there. Right? Not paying attention to the rounds of editing and film editing and like, everything that goes into creating what that final piece is that's actually there. And we don't pay attention to how many people are involved. Right. It's not, it's not just one woman or one man that, that all of a sudden it's like, oh, all on my, myself, all on my own. I figured this all out. I put it all together. I figured like everything, it's all on me.
I'm the lone wolf, I'm the cowboy. Right. And it's like, that's never, that's never true. Literally, it's never true. There is no self-made man or woman. It just, it's not true. And so for us to, again, you know, people who hear me, you know, say this over and over again, where's your support? Where's your support system? Who's your support team? Who are you working with? Who are you partnering with? Who are you coaching with? Who are you guiding, you know, whatever it's gonna be. Because there is so much that can develop. Because we do need those walking partners who can help mirror things back to us who can point things out. We may or may not agree with what they point out, but it creates the dialogue and it creates a dialogue for our own reflection. And maybe they are on point, which is even better.
We need that sounding board. We need that, you know, that reflection that comes back at us because we're picking up more and more vantage points on who we are and what we're expressing, what we're bringing to the world as we do that. And what we're feeling for. And I'm curious the, you know, cause I, I already know this about, about kind of who you are and what you're evoking, but you know, what we're feeling for is the, in whatever comes back to us from that support is what feels most true to us. What feels deeply resonant to us because it's not about us conforming to other people's perspectives and advice of, oh, we gotta do it their way. That's not what it's about. It's almost like a tuning fork. And when, you know, when, when you hear that sound come back at you, is it harmonious? Is it resonant? Or is there a bit of dissonance there? In which case, okay, where's that coming from? Where is it? Is it their advice or is it something in me that I need to work out so that I feel more ownership? Because maybe they're actually seeing something more deeper and deeper than I am right now. Or I actually know say, that's not it. This is what it is for me. Great. And that comes out. And so I'm just kinda curious from, you know, when you, when you're working with writers, with anybody, with any clients, how you see them begin to really own that deeper part of their story. You know, whether it comes from you or not.
Genevieve (47:10):
I love that question, it's so great and it's, I think it speaks highly to the idea of feedback, right? Like feedback is hard. And feedback ties so intricately in with vulnerability, right? You're sending somebody something that you've written and you're scared to death, they're gonna be like, yeah, no thank you. This isn't good enough. Right. As we were, it's lacking something. I think when it comes to art of any kind, feedback can be such a loving teaching tool. Right? Like it's art. This isn't math and science. Right. There is no right or wrong. Like if this feels true and creative for you, then it is like, I am one person and yes, I may have an expertise in, you know, an element of this, but it is still yours. You were putting something out into the world that didn't exist before.
So one of the feedback pieces that I use and that, you know, that tuning fork, if you will, is constantly encouraging my writers and contributors to keep turning that story in on themselves. Constantly turning. It's super, super, super easy for us. And this applies to life too, right? Is to look outward. Be like, this person made me feel this way, this person did this. And that's a normal thing, right? Like in transformation as a whole, anger is part of grief. Right. It's something we need to go through, but the real transformation within any story is when we are turning it on ourselves. Okay. Maybe that person did do something, but what did you learn from it? How did you feel in that moment? We can never speak the truth of another person. We just can't, the only story we really have to tell is our own.
And so I will just say it over and over and over again. Okay. This one little bit here. If you were to flip this and turn it towards being a story about you instead of a story about this person you met at the grocery store, or this relative then how does it sound? And almost always like 98% of the time they come back and like, oh, that feels better. Right. Like, because you are truly owning your story and all the pieces that you can when you do that versus making it about something outside of you that's outta your control and that you may not actually know the truth of. Right?
Luke (50:16):
It is such a, a great reminder with whatever it is that we are going through, whatever feedback we're receiving, whatever that circle or that group might be bringing back to us at any given time. It's to come back to, well what are you experiencing in relation to that? Right. What are you feeling? What's coming up for you? What's emergent? Because that allows you to explore even more that which is deepest within you, that which is coming up for you, that which, you know, maybe you do need to work out. Maybe, maybe it, it kicks some stuff up there that you're like, oh, I experienced it this way and that was really agitating and that was really scary or that was really frustrating. Or it brought up my anxiety and it's like, where did that come from? If it's striking that cord, well that cord's in you. And so what, what did it strike up against?
Genevieve (51:02):
And it's not to discount those experiences, right? Because it's still real for you and true for you, how you experienced being within the world. But there's still a difference between which side of that we tell. Right. We can't presume to know someone else's intentions. Or the story that was happening for them at that same time. So I try as hard as I can just to stick to the story that we know and it is the one that we are living out. And you can take any story and you can turn it inwards. Doesn't matter what the story is. You can always redirect it that way. So I guess that would be that that tuning fork. Right. And I think it was coming up for me, even as we're talking about it, one of the questions that often happens is like, what if my story isn't traumatic enough though? Right? What if, well how did someone put it?
What if my, my life has been too much of a vanilla candle, let's be kind to vanilla candles, they're wonderful. But we do live in a society that has romanticized tragedy. And like to the point that even I catch myself feeling angry every time there's like a holiday commercial with a parent who is gone. Like we can celebrate joy in and of itself. Right. And we can, and those things are real and but the thing is they are very real and we have to deal with those things in real life. We don't need to add that external pain in places. And so one of the conversations that keeps coming up is like, well what if I don't have that big transformational story and sort of talking through those things. But we still change, right. We change when we watch a person, we love sleeping, we change when we have our children. We change when we see, you know, a lover step out of the shower kind of thing. Like there's these moments, these very poetic, very much more subtle and that's the thing, they're often much gentler. But we don't live in a world that leans into gentleness. And so having to kind of cultivate that as well and help people understand that story equally matters.
Luke (53:42):
Absolutely. I'm so glad you brought that up. It is something I not only hear, it's something I've, I've gone through myself in thinking through, you know, what it is that I may wanna put out there, what it is I may wanna share. And feeling those moments of, you know, preparing for a project or preparing for a talk or any number of things, it's like, ah, I don't know. I haven't been through as much tragedy. I haven't been through these really big deep, horrific experiences my life and, and kind of reflecting back on that and saying, but I still have my experience. It's still my experience and it's still what it is that I've been through. And it still gives me a chance to be able to express from that place. And again, that which is most personal is universal. So it can be those really, really small, seemingly small, small meaning every day type of moments that we connect to that all of a sudden has us connecting to a deeper experience of who we are or what this life is or what it really truly means.
Just to, to grieve in that way or be happy in that way or to be fulfilled in this way. And we can still talk to all of those experiences because the experiences are universal, the details may be different. The details may be unique to every single one of us, but we're still connecting into those universal energies and emotions and experiences that we all share as, as human beings. And the more that we can bring that forward, the more we give permission to other people to bring that forward as well so that we can all share our unique voices. Nobody's voice is, gets to matter more than everybody else's. They all matter.
Genevieve (55:17):
And overcoming can be gentle.
Luke (55:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Genevieve (55:22):
Right. Like even if you haven't gone through these huge ordeals in life, right. There was still battles to be fought when you chose to leave your old job and pursue this path. Gentle is the only word that comes to mind because life is allowed to be gentle as well. Right. But that doesn't mean that you didn't have to confront insecurities. It doesn't mean you didn't have to confront fear or doubt. Right. We just have this way of seeing the big dragon and it becomes more obvious and easier to wrap our brains around when we're, we're slaying the big dragon versus like coaxing along and just bushwhacking our way through to the other side too.
Luke (56:16):
Yeah. The energy that just came up for me is how often because at times we, we try to convince ourselves it needs to be bigger, it needs to be more dramatic. How often do we stop ourselves from doing the bushwhacking until it becomes the dragon? Right. And, and recognizing that no, actually it, it, it can be that every day type of circumstance of, of stepping into what I need to face today. Stepping into where the soft spots are, where the, the challenging spots are, where those moments of discomfort happen to lie. I don't need to wait for them to become some bigger thing. And so now, you know, kind of applying into the way that we've live ourselves forward because I know, you know, I've, I've been there of almost putting off certain things until they became something much bigger. And part of the reason why I have this show, part of the reason why I've done coaching and guiding all the other things I've done is I don't want other people to have to go through the more traumatic moments.
It's like, well, let's get into the conversation now today and let's take what you're already experiencing, because it's already right there in front of you. Let's not wait until it becomes something significantly more challenging for you to go through. But that's all part of how we lean into and just recognize how do we step into what's right in front of us? Because you are that person to face that, you are that person to express it. You are that person to, you know, to step into that challenge and overcome it in gentle ways, overcome it in bigger ways, whatever it is for you.
Genevieve (57:46):
Yeah. And that's some of those things we don't really talk about very much. Right. Like some of my most transformative moments have been in stillness. Not in battle. Right. Like when I stopped to be like, Gen, you do not need to fight this one with everything you have. But if you just stopped for a little while. Right. And so, uh, our stories, but we don't, we don't see it unless we share it and someone's gotta go first. So someone's gotta go first. My desire is that Gray and Granite can be that dock at the edge of the lake with the cold water. Someone's can go as when someone goes first, others will follow. Right. So I'm hoping it will be that space where people will feel safe enough to, to go first. I mean, I love it. You've all been that person and supported by someone.
Luke (58:46):
And that's what I wanna encourage everybody to do because about the time of this episode, the newest, the newest issue of Gray and Granite is gonna be out. And so check the show notes for being able to get to Gen's website. It's just simply Gen, G-E-N, georget.com. Check the show notes, it'll be in there. And once again, Gen, I want to thank you for coming on this walk. I have so appreciated sharing the space with you again.
Genevieve (59:09):
Oh, thank you for having me. It's always a privilege.
Luke (59:13):
Thank you.
Thank you for joining me for this episode of On This Walk. Before signing off, please subscribe to the show and don't miss a single episode. Also, please rate and review us. This helps me greatly in getting the word out about this show. And remember, this is just the start of our conversation. To keep it going, ask questions, add your own thoughts, join the ongoing conversation by just heading over to onthiswalk.com and click on Community in the upper right hand corner. It's free to join. Until we go on this walk again, I'm Luke Iorio. Be well.