004 - The Courage It Takes

Over our first three episodes, I’ve noticed that there’s an inescapable common theme: courage. 

It takes courage to walk away from old patterns, old ways of being, old aspects of identity by which others know you, and by which you’ve known yourself your entire life.

It takes courage to step into the unknown, the in between, to find steady footing on the shaky ground of transition. 

(In fact, if a transition feels too easy, it might be because we moved too quickly, trying to fill up the emptiness inherent to the unknown, to new beginnings.) 

This show is going to place The Courage It Takes front and center. We’ll talk about the various stages we encounter as we instigate and cycle through change within our lives. I believe there’s value in paying close attention to the “in between” — that wonderful stage I have come to know so well, of  being “no longer” in one place and “not yet” in the next.

To navigate this walk, I’ve invited a new guest to our show, and invited back a familiar face from Episode 1. 

In This Episode

  • (03:40) Finding the courage to move in new directions and rediscover ourselves

  • (10:45) How Marni’s year of radical faith strengthened her “courage muscle”

  • (13:06) Michael on the rewards of allowing our higher selves to make courageous decisions

  • (22:48) Marni’s fight for her life as her source of courage

  • (25:24) Michael’s concept of courage as an energy inherent in each of us 

  • (31:49) Self-acceptance, authenticity and intuition as key elements of courage

  • (40:10) How are you being asked to be courageous right now, at this moment in life?

  • (44:02) How to embrace uncertainty while having faith in the idea of “divine timing”

  • (49:56) “Trust the ceremony”: returning to our places of inner courage

  • (56:40) Why courage requires bold and radical action

Notable Quotes

  • “I remember this moment where I was like, if I can't dig deep for myself – because at that time I didn't even feel worthy of it – I thought about the fact that the universe gave me three daughters and I was like, I have to be courageous for them because the one thing I wanna be is an awesome mom. And I might be a complete disaster in all these other ten things. And that was the first time where I was like, I don't wanna do this. I wanna hide. I wanna shut down. I wanna quit. And I remember just thinking, like I have to have something to fight for. And at that time it was that energy of fighting for my life. That was the beginning of that courage. And I think over time, that energy shifts, but sometimes when you're really in that broken place, like you gotta find something to fight for.”

  • “I really think that courage is an energy that is inherent in every single human being. … I believe it's inherent to who we are as souls, to who we are as spirits in our divinity. When we remember to connect to our divinity, it is easier to be courageous because that is an energy that is instilled in us from birth. I mean, just look at toddlers, look at infants. They're just like all over the place. They have no fear of the unknown. It’s the ego that has the fear.”

Our Guests

Transformational leader and coach Marni Battista is the founder of The Institute for Living Courageously and Dating with Dignity. She is also the host of the podcast Life Check Yourself and author of memoir/self-help book “How to Find a Quality Guy Without Going on 200 Dates.” Marni’s work has been featured in Glamour, Cosmopolitan, The Oprah Magazine and on Dr. Phil. 

Doctoral-trained therapist and healing practitioner Michael Smith is the founder of Empath Connection. As a leader in mind-body holistic healing for nearly two decades, Michael has personally coached thousands of individuals to make stronger connections between mind, body, and spirit. 

Resources & Links

On This Walk

  • Luke (00:00:01):

    Welcome to On This Walk, a show about the winding journey of life in all its realness. I'm Luke Iorio. Please join me and my brilliant heart centered guests each week, as we look to navigate this journey more consciously and authentically. Uncovering how to tap back into that sense of connection with self, with soul and with something bigger than ourselves. Now let's go on this walk.

    Welcome, welcome, welcome. And thank you for joining me on this walk. I'm your host, Luke Iorio. And today, we are gonna be walking with the courage it takes. You know, it's interesting because in the last couple of episodes, last couple of shows that we've recorded and aired, this theme of courage has started to emerge in just our, our last talk with Ashanti Branch and Aaron Kahlow. We got into this conversation around, what does it mean to face the masks that we walk around with, the masks that we wear?

    Some of those that we have picked up intentionally because of roles that we felt like we needed to play within our lives, ways that we felt like we needed to show up. And in other instances, masks that we put on to keep ourselves safe, to protect ourselves and things that we don't even realize were inherent in the way that we started showing up in this world. And it takes a lot of courage to be able to reveal ourselves, to be able to take off that mask and start to really show up in these different ways. And as I explored that, and I also explored some of the transitions that we've been through, and I've already spoken to some of my guests about those transitions, not just in stepping into the truth of who it is that we are, but even just the transitions that we go through in everyday life, the moving in between what's no longer true or no longer a fit for us, but then being in between, because the thing we're moving towards is not yet here, might not even be known yet.

    And so we need courage to also be in that space in between. And so to open the show today, I wanted to share a little bit of my own background in a time that I got shaken up pretty good. And it actually led me to make some decisions that I can look back on and say, I, I had courage to make those decisions at that, that time. And then what it led me to, many, many, many years later, and in absence that I was facing, of courage. And so where this story begins for me, and I don't wanna go through the whole of this because there's a lot to this particular story because well, it occurred on September 11th and I was on my way into the city, not to the towers. I was on my way into Midtown that day, as everything began to unfold and I was on the train headed in and I got cut off and Hoboken, New Jersey.

    And as I headed out onto this kind of great lawn next to the terminal where I thought we were just waiting, we didn't really know what was going on yet. And we turn, and we see the tragedy that's unfolding right in front of our eyes. And so that day, as I watched from the great lawn there across the Hudson River, from what was going on in Southern Manhattan, so many things were experienced. And I remember when that first tower fell and then the jets were flying up above us, and we didn't even know whether they were our planes or not at that moment. I remember just the extraordinary amount of despair and fear and everything that was just rippling through me and rippling through so many that were experiencing the tragedy of what was unfolding. And then I remember later on that day of just that evening really, being in St Vincent's Church in Madison, New Jersey, and just sitting in those pews and just weeping and weeping and weeping with what had just been experienced.

    And what that began to set in motion for me was a lot of deep reflection. It was probably the first time in my life. It was, I was in my early twenties at that point. And it was the first time in my life that I went into that level of deep reflection and started to take a look at, am I in alignment with where I want to be? Am I in alignment with who I want to be inside of those life? And I recognized that I was in a job that I just, I knew wasn't the fit in some respects, I couldn't really stand it. It's just the, the path that was in front of me just really made no sense. And there was a lot of, it was a small corporation that already had politics to it and all sorts of shenanigans.

    It was just, it was not for me. And at the same time, even though I knew I wanted to make some changes, I knew there were some responsibilities coming up because at the same time I had just met this amazing, amazing woman that I wanted to marry. And so I knew that we were gonna have a wedding to pay for, and that we were gonna have a life to begin. And yet I was in this struggle back and forth of, do I make these changes? Do I not make these changes? Do I hold onto these responsibilities or do I take this whole other path? And it was a little bit after, uh, several months, uh, had passed and it was before we ended up getting engaged, but we knew that that was our path that, that we were headed down to. I remember driving home from work and, you know, sitting outside in the parking lot, we were on the, uh, the upper floor of, of this little kind of apartment complex.

    I just remember, I'm like, I've gotta talk to Dawn about this. And I begin to walk up the flight and I walk into our little apartment. It might have been all of like 600 square feet, the little one bedroom, the galley kitchen, the whole thing, right? And we sit down and I didn't drop to a knee to propose, instead we sat down on the couch and I told her that I needed to quit my job and that I needed to go in a completely different direction. It was actually the first of three conversations that I had over the next two years, right before getting engaged, while we were engaged, getting married, and then while she was pregnant. And each time, first I quit my job to go work in a line of work that was pretty much all commission only that I was not gonna get paid anything for like nine to 12 months at all, we were gonna live off of her teacher's salary.

    And then I finally do that, and then I spend money to go out and start a whole new consulting business. Uh, once we finally had money coming back in, so not only do I spend that money, I go into debt to start this whole other company. And then after I get everything going and the consulting firm is actually starting to go pretty well, I decide I'm gonna close it up and I'm gonna go to work in the coach training field. And that was quite some time ago and it was a really, really beneficial decision for me. And it was an epic journey. And yet when I fast forward 17 years after having made that decision, it was time for me to leave that institute and to leave that work that I had been such a part of for so long.

    And I recognized in those latter years that I've talked about already on this show and in the very first episode, I hit a wall of burnout and I hit that burnout and even stuck around longer. Because at that point, I was sort of drained of the courage that I needed to be able to take the next step, because I needed to walk away from everything that I had known to that point, what I had built my life around. I had to face the fact that if I left, what does that mean for who I am? What happens to my identity? What happens to my level of comfort, right? That comfort goes away in all of the, everything from the material to the physical, to the emotional, the mental security and comfort that I had within that space. It also brought up questions around, but I'm also the provider for the family, and what does this mean? Do I, does this break any of the obligations and responsibilities I have to be this provider?

    And so now all of a sudden when you fast forward and you've been in a particular trajectory of life for so long, the courage that it takes at that moment is very different. And I struggled with that courage until honestly I had some very blessed circumstances that allowed me to move on. And those that could fortune allowed me to move in a different direction because I hadn't had that moxie, that faith to do it myself even sooner. And it's that courage, meaning that courage to have that faith, the courage to have that moxie, the courage to make that decision, even though life is heading this way, and we decide we're gonna hit the pause button and go in a different direction. That's the courage that I wanted to talk about today.

    And so we are gonna talk about how we need that courage to face that struggle, because there's this kind of this gravity, there's that pull, it's almost that surface tension that tries to keep you in place where you are. And we need a certain courage to be able to break that surface tension, to break that tension so that we can move into whole new directions. And very often the directions that are gonna bring us back into alignment with more of what we've always wanted to be, who we really truly even know ourselves as. And so to go on this walk, I needed to reach out to a couple of really good friends to have this conversation. And these are just brilliant, wonderful, and amazing souls that I have had the good fortune of knowing for quite some time. And so I wanna welcome to this walk, Marni Battista and Michael Smith.

    And so first and foremost, thank you guys so much for being here and for everyone, you might have seen a little bit of this and read a little bit of this, but Marni Battista is the founder of the Institute for Living Courageously. I mean, literally the institute, how could I not invite her to this talk, right? And the way that she got there though, is the way in which she's been helping clients for well over 12 years, originally in the dating and relationship space, now broadened out to this kind of deeper work, because at the end of the day, that's what it really was, was this deeper relationship with self and feeling into that type of courage, that type of faith, that type of confidence, to really get to know yourself at that level to make the changes or have the relationship that you really truly had always dreamt of, and she's been doing that work for so long.

    For Michael, who's the founder of the Empath Connection, I think, and you guys got to know him actually on, on our first episode, you got to know a little bit of his, his story and a little bit of his background, but I think one of the things that's also amazed me because he's been doing this for 15 years. Well, before I think most the idea of empath was a little bit more commonplace that people understood at least a little tiny bit more now they do. But I think it's the fact that Michael, you were, you were working with individuals that knew that they had something about them that operated differently, that they felt this world differently. And that can be very disorienting to a lot of people. And you've been doing that work and you've been helping them, not just like understand it, but step into that and recognize the extraordinary, like gift and power that that is to not only themselves, but to other people as well.

    And so that takes a tremendous amount of courage, especially when you're not following the typical mainstream way of doing things and what society is looking for. And so these were the two individuals that I wanted to go on this walk with. And so if I were to begin Marni, you know, with you, I think the first question, this is actually for both of you, but to Marni for you to, to respond first is really actually to ask you just a little bit about where is courage playing a role in your life now, like, how is courage something present for you?

    Marni (00:10:45):

    Well, I joke with Luke that I pick these words of the year that I wanna like really deepen and study, and I never pick, you know, like fun and games or play, not unicorns and rainbows. No, I'm like darling. So this year I picked radical faith and I was terrified to do it. And the short version is that as a result, I sort of blew up the very comfortable, secure life that I had living in Los Angeles, felt like I worked a lifetime to come back from a divorce, uh, you know, a hundred thousand dollars plus in debt, create financial security, you know, meet a new amazing husband, raise my kids. Like it would've been real easy to just sit and enjoy the fruits of all that labor, but something deeper was calling. And so it took, um, and it's taking incredible amounts of courage on a daily basis to live in what I'm doing now, which I'm calling my radical living challenge, which finds me in a 40 foot motor home living full time, traveling around the country. And so courage shows up in my life, living in 40 feet with my husband, it shows up in how I wanna operate my business and my vision for the future of that business. How I wanna have courageous conversations with my children who are adults. And so it's pretty much a daily practice. I'm getting really strong courage muscles.

    Luke (00:12:16):

    Uh, actually, I'm really glad that you referred to that as, as courage muscles, 'cause we're gonna come back to that. That's most definitely, uh, definitely true. And it is right. We think about, you know, and I just wanna kinda emphasize that is that at some point in our lives we've developed this, I hate using the kind of the trite phrase of comfort zone. Mm-hmm <affirmative> right. We do have this comfort zone. We have this like momentum that's just taking care of itself and it's gonna just keep moving unless we disrupt it and to disrupt, it is really disruptive, right? I mean, it, it sets like everything else. It moves in all these different directions. And so to be able to say, that's no longer the momentum that I want, because it's heading towards something that I know is no longer in alignment with where I wanna be. And so being able to step into that is something that takes tremendous courage. Well, obviously we'll be breaking that down through, throughout most of this conversation. Michael, same question to you. Just that sense of, you know, where is it that courage is showing up for you in life right now.

    Michael (00:13:06):

    It's really interesting that, that both of you use the word comfort that you are in your, uh, you know, your comfort zone. And it's true that when I think of courage and when I think it's relationship to comfort, comfort is really the opposite of courage, that energy. And so for me, my comfort zone has always been doing online events. I've been doing it for like what, you know, 15 years or so like online, no problem, easy, easy, easy. What I really haven't done a lot of is the in person event. So this year I actually, the last two, three years, I had been feeling a, a call, an inner call from a higher self to like, Hey, Michael, you know, you might want to think about doing some events on the land, work with Gaia. So I had been putting that off for years and years.

    And finally this year, I said, you know what, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna step up. It is stepping into the unknown. There are more variables, more things could go wrong. That type of a thing, uh, for, you know, coming from the ego. But I'm very happy that I did make that decision. And it's not a coincidence that my income is up like 300% this year from doing that. I think that once when we do, don't you guys agree that when we make those courageous decisions, that really are coming from our higher self that get rewarded for it.

    Marni (00:14:23):

    That was my faith, that, if I destroy things, then things will grow. I remember being in the Redwoods last summer when I was testing out living an RV. And I learned that like, if these trees that haven't been here for like 2000 years, don't fall, then literally that forest will fail. Right? Those little saplings need those giant ass trees to fall. I was like, okay, I'm gonna grow myself, Redwood forest. And the thing that I wanna talk about is like, yes, it's amazing. But sometimes that amazing, like, yeah, and then I met my guy or my income was up or I won the lottery, whatever it is, sometimes it doesn't happen right away. And that to me is when I am like, okay, radical faith. Okay, courage. Because I think that the old way of like the secret, you know, like do this, you're gonna manifest that, is not a reliable message.

    Luke (00:15:23):

    When I stepped back from this part of the conversation, there was something that I wanted to add in here, whether it's the secret or the law of attraction or anything similar, there was a piece that was nearly always missing from these explanations. And Michael referenced it just a moment ago. He said, when we make those courageous decisions that are really coming from our higher self, we get rewarded for it. And repeat, that are really coming from our higher self. This is foundational. I've worked with hundreds of clients, supported thousands of other students, friends, family, colleagues, and so on. Our minds may make a decision to go after something, to ask for something big or be courageous. But all too often, that decision is based on a want. It's about wanting. It's about desiring. It's about grasping for something that want may be really nice to have, but it's not necessarily an alignment with the core of who we are.

    It's our wanting mind. It's chasing something. We need to step back for a moment and consider, what need is that want actually trying to fulfill the want. Let's say it's to grow our business or career to the next level, because that'll bring in more money or prestige or opportunities. That's really a strategy to fulfill an underlying need. So in that scenario, what's the underlying need. Well, perhaps it's a sense of freedom or personal fulfillment. Even if we say it's a sense of achievement or growth, consider why it's an achievement or growth. What are those things really getting you, because likely it's gonna lead you back to a sense of freedom, fulfillment, purpose, love connection, or some deeper need like these. Our needs are always going to find a way to try to be fulfilled, either through imbalanced wanting, chasing, grasping, attaching, or through our balanced, conscious self that looks more at the needs and identifies many ways that we can fulfill them in the manners that are more aligned or closely aligned and congruent with who we are.

    That's when we're coming from our higher self. So again, when setting your sights, make sure that's where you're coming from, from your higher self. Be mindful of what may be driving you, and what you're committing to or going after. Is it a want? Does it feel balanced? Does it simplify or stabilize or bring more peace and meaning to your life, or is it born from attachment from simply wanting more or from some influence of society or family or culture that says, this is what you should want and what should be the next step? And the last point be patient, how often do we figure out what we want to create or bring to the world? And then we give ourselves like 48 hours to do it. It takes time. It doesn't happen overnight. And the deeper and deeper you align with your interstate, your true needs with your essence, your talent, your character, the more those needs will be fulfilled. It's inevitable, but be patiently persistent in your process of getting there.

    And what you're bringing up also is, is that there's these cycles and phases. So one to, to Michael, what you said that the piece I will say, is it I have repeatedly found that while it is by no means a straight line. When we do step into that courage, there are some things that begin to move and our, our energy begins to move in a different way. And it's as if the universe is, is conspiring in all of these different, wonderful things, and it's not a straight line. So Marni, what you just brought up right, is because depending on, you know, that could be a really big tree that's coming down that needs to fall, that needs to decay, that needs to turn into food for the forest to grow 20 trees in its place. And so it is, there's a period of time. That's more of the cycle and knowing, you know, what is that pace?

    Uh, that's something honestly, I mean, I've been through that over this last, you know, year and a half that I've been through trying to figure out like, where am I gonna go next? What do I choose to put my time into? I've done a lot of that kind of reflecting. And I know that there were some things that I started to move on that weren't the right time, because I wanted to like, well, wait, I've gotta fill this. I've gotta start moving again. I've gotta keep, you know, pushing this cycle so that it starts paying off. And actually the more courageous thing would've been to not do that. And I had to learn that I had to catch myself and say, actually, no, the courageous thing is to slow down, and to be present and patient with what's unfolding for you. And don't try to plant in the fall, right? You plant in the spring. So if you're in the fall, you've gotta be able to recognize that. And you've gotta be able to let that process go through, because the more you interrupt it, slower and the longer it goes is even tougher.

    Michael (00:20:40):

    Luke, if I could add, you know, this is such a beautiful conversation. It, everything in divine time, right, Marni, you're talking about it often doesn't come right away. And an example of that in my own life is when I was 26 years old, I was working as a residence hall director and an academic advisor. I'm a counselor by training. And I realized like, this just, just wasn't it for me. And I had a desire, this inner, uh, call to move to California. And I thought, well, how the hell am I gonna move to California? I've only got like $2,500 save. I have no job lined up, but yet I want to move to California. So I quit my job in Ohio, uh, at Miami university. And I got my ass out to Los Angeles. And, you know, within a couple weeks I found a, another job, which eventually I got fired from the point I'm making though, is that this was like a way-stop along the way. If I hadn't done that, I never, would've got my PhD, uh, a few years later. And then I never, would've gotten fired from that job as a professor of counseling a few years after that to start the Empath Connection in 2007, which is the work that I was really meant to do. So sometimes it does take these little detours don't you think?

    Luke (00:21:51):

    It completely does. It's one of those things, right. And, and I think it's the kinda the beauty of, of Marni using that phrase, radical faith. Is that for Michael, and I can, I can say so very, very similar things about what landed me at iPEC at the coach training school and all of the good fortune I had from that. It's so easy to see those connections now looking in hindsight and we can say, oh, well, of course, that makes sense. Then there's the front side of Marni, what you're describing right now, which is the radical faith. And I guess, you know, that's sort of, of one of my questions for you guys, is where does that courage come from for you? I don't think of, of courage is just like being there. It's usually something that almost we have to grow and nurture within ourselves because it's, there's something there that's stirring us, that's pulling us forward or pushing us forward even at times. And I'm curious, you know, when you think of courage for you, where does it really come from within you or what starts it so that you can take action from that place?

    Marni (00:22:48):

    I think for me, I had to figure out at the beginning what my, why was because when I was sort of a dating disaster and, uh, divorced and making so many bad choices, I remember this moment where I was like, if I can't dig deep for myself, because at that time I didn't even feel worthy of it. I thought about the fact that the universe gave me three daughters. And I was like, I have to be courageous for them, because the one thing I wanna be is an awesome mom. And I might be a complete disaster in all these other 10 things. And that was the first time where I was like, I don't wanna do this. I wanna hide. I wanna shut down. I wanna quit. And I remember just thinking, like I have to have something to fight for. And at that time it was that energy of fighting for my life. Right? That was the beginning of that courage. And I think over time, that energy shifts, but sometimes when you're really in that broken place, like you gotta find something to fight for.

    Luke (00:23:51):

    That even just reminds me of one of the sources. And we're gonna talk quite a bit about this, I think for a while, but one of those sources for me, and I've used this with certain clients, I've coached, I've used this in some retreats and stuff, is to have people kind of fast forward, like 20, 25 years from now in their mind. And imagine that 20 something years from now, they're sitting down with a close, loved one from the next generation, be that their child be that their niece, their nephew, whoever that is, that they're thinking of. And that they're gonna explain, you know, what are the decisions that they made over these last two decades? Because whatever it is that they've done, whatever it is that they've lived, that's the impression and that's, what's gonna be left to this younger, loved one, this next generation that's behind you.

    And what do you want that conversation to be? What do you want that to look like? Do you want to be able to explain the courageous decisions that you made, or do you want to talk about the regrets, the things that you didn't go for, or the, the ways that you just kind of skirted around it and just got safely through your 20 years? That's been a big, deep thing for me. Cause like anytime it's it, I've gotta stretch down and say, okay, how do I wanna be able to, to explain this? How do I wanna share this with my kids when they're graduating college and about to start the adult phase of their life. Gonna say, it's a reality check, which reminds me that Marni has this really great podcast called Life Check Yourself. But it is, it's a re it's a life check and it's, it's that moment of looking at it and going, okay, this is gonna be scary as hell, but that's the example I wanna set. That's what I wanna live into. Michael, for yourself, or just add on or otherwise, I'd love to just hear where that courage comes from for you.

    Michael (00:25:24):

    Well, I mean, I'm really struck by both of your thoughts, talking about how the spiritual truth, the deeper spiritual truth, what is the deeper spiritual truth behind courage? Where does it come from in my belief? And I would love to get you guys take on this. I really think that courage is an energy that is inherent in every single human being from our divinity though, not from our human or our ego in printing. I believe it's, it's inherent to who we are as souls to who we are as spirits in our divinity. When we remember to connect to our divinity, it is easier to be courageous because that is an energy that is instilled in us from birth. I mean, just look at toddlers, look at infants. They're just like all over the place. They have no fear of the unknown. The ego that has the fear. So I would propose that, you know, that part of what courage is being so strongly connected to our divinity and what you both just alluded to is that it's not the benefits of courage are often not just for us. Yeah, but they're often very deeply connected because we are spiritual beings to other people as well.

    Luke (00:26:41):

    I'm intrigued by this, very intrigued by this. So I wanna see where this goes because on the one side, my mind can explain more simply, but I wanna take it the other direction as well. The one side, if I go from the developmental and psychological side of that, right? It's that when we are in that youthful state, we are so much more pure and there is so much more that is streaming through us because we don't have the stories of, you know, all the time we touched the, the stove and it was hot. Right? And so we don't have all of those stories. We don't have the mind constantly steering us away from those things that it's screaming, danger, danger, danger. Although most of the things it screams danger about have nothing to do with physical danger anymore. And so there's that part of it.

    But when you say divinity, and you say recognizing that divinity within self, there is something there that it's interesting to me because what came to my, I'll call it mind. Although it probably comes from a different place, was that when we're connected in, at that deep level, whatever we wanna call source for ourselves, there's an element to me where it's almost like courage is irrelevant. It seems like we're just so connected to the way that things need to unfold. It's we need courage when we slip back into the more usual human way of operating so to speak. But when we are so deeply connected, it's like we are seeing the way that it's meant to unfold or at least for us, or the way that we're meant to show up. And a lot of those concerns fade away, because we don't see them as concerns. We don't see them as dangers anymore. Cause we can see them more purely and from a much higher state of consciousness. What do you guys have to, to add onto that? Or even clarify in what I'm trying to get across here.

    Marni (00:28:17):

    I love that. I think there's different levels of that. For me, it seems like that, like when I'm so connected to what is true and what is aligned, then taking that courageous step, it seems like it's so clearly laid out that I can do that. And then there are times where it happens in the reverse, right? Where there's like a pain, and then like wanting to like so many of our clients like wanna avoid, there's like easier softer way. And so even though we hear that divine message, we know that's our truth. There's this moment where we have to take a new action. And that's where that, that muscle gets built to where like my vision would be like, I would love to be. So in tune, like Michael was talking about to like that divine state, that it doesn't feel like I need to be courageous. It's just maybe being, but I'm still, I'm still in my human form sometimes going, you know, this is scary. I have faith. I'm gonna do it. Mm-hm

    Luke (00:29:19):

    That's the dance though. Isn't it? That dance is being connected at those moments, and hearing, and seeing, and feeling so clearly. And then it's, okay now we need to bring it into the practical. We need to bring it into our waking and living action-oriented life. And that's when it's like, I'm ready, I'm clear. I'm feeling it. And it's like, oh no, I'm about to do this. It's gonna get real, really quick. Right? And, but that's the dance.

    Michael (00:29:49):

    And I, I think also, you know, the word action is incredibly important because we cannot have courage without an action. The energy of courage that is instilled into us is the force that, you know, Luke, I, when you were telling your initial story, you used the word I needed. I need, I needed to leave my job. You know, I needed to quit the job, I needed to go in a new direction. Use that word six times in your opening statement. And that is the force of courage from, in my view, from the divine that is allowing us to recognize that we need to take in action. And that is where we co-create, and with the divine and with our own inherent courage, that is saying, "Hey, it's time."

    Luke (00:30:38):

    Let me use that then is part of the way I want to, go further into this. Cause I'm curious about what you see, as some of those qualities that help us tap into courage. And so, you know, an example of this, it's very true actually with Michael, what you just brought up was that that need was there. And I had to reach a place of acceptance, first. I needed to be able to accept that what was now in front of me was no longer a fit. I needed to accept that change was coming. I needed to accept the fears that I had. I needed to accept those things, acknowledge them, see them and not brush 'em under the rug. People say this in all, all the different ways, but once you've brought that into the light, once you've put voice to those things, that seems so scary to mention, or to talk about. It's almost as if that energy starts to move further and deeper into you. One of those qualities, one of the many qualities I think we can talk about here, but there's this quality of acceptance. That's part of this process. That is one of those threads that weaves with courage. And I'm curious for you guys, you know, what are some of those other qualities that you've noticed in your own journeys that have helped you like step into that, that courage step into that faith

    Michael (00:31:49):

    When you were talking about accepting, it's interesting 'cause it brings up a story from my own life, where I had to accept the fact that I was gay back in 1989, 1990, before it was cool. You know what, you know what I mean? Like before it became mainstream, more mainstream. I remember like there was a, a distinct moment in time where I actually had to talk myself into the acceptance of the fact that this was who I was. And then once I did that, it became so much easier. My very next thought was, well now where are the other gay students here on campus? I was at a Catholic college in, St. John's University in Minnesota, where it was like, just terrifying to me to, to think of the thought of coming out. I knew there was another gay, there was a gay group on campus.

    And the moment that I accepted that I was gay, it led me to, okay, you need to go join this, this gay and lesbian group. And I have never been so nervous in my entire life. My heart was literally like, I, it was the closest to a panic attack I've ever had in my life. And yet I could feel this force pulling me to the room where I eventually sat down and, and came out to another gay person the very first time in my life. I didn't know any other gay people in my life. And that just led me on a 50-year journey now of just being my authentic true self.

    Luke (00:33:23):

    Just give yourself a second and pause on this for a moment. When have you had a moment in your life where you could feel the truth of who you are, your most authentic self in the raw, wanting to come out no longer wanting to be denied. And it was time to share it, to share from that vulnerable authenticity for the first time, I'll drop a teaser of what I'm gonna talk about and share in episode nine, it's a deeply personal conversation about walking that edge of vulnerability and authenticity. You guys are gonna see me go through it in real-time. What's going on in those moments is that for a significant period of time in our lives, we focus on social acceptance because we wanna belong or be liked and loved. And we start to develop these strategies to get those things, to the best of our abilities. We start to conform. We start to withhold the parts that we aren't sure are going to be accepted.

    Take those patterns out a decade, two decades, three decades later, more of being repeated. And we have an incredible amount invested in this image that we've been portraying to the world. And it feels like any significant change might risk everything. It may risk our friendships. Relationships are professional standing, how we're known to and accepted by others. It's almost like if we do this, we're gonna be starting all over again, but we know we're coming to a point that we can't keep it in any longer, because we more deeply feel that authenticity of wanting to be seen and honored to be accepted for who we really are and not just what we're presenting to the world. Every client, colleague, friend I've ever watched go through these moments every time, even when it wasn't easier. And even when they didn't receive the reaction that they were hoping for, every time they still come back and say, I wish I had done that earlier. It creates such a feeling of liberation and ultimately alignment. Michael shared his personal experience with us beautifully, and know that his story in some way is all of our stories. Honor what wants to step forward. Honor what wants to be known, and seen within you? And when you honor it, when you express it, when you put that out into the world, you begin to give that permission to others as well.

    Michael (00:36:05):

    Other experiences in your guys' life, where once you accepted, as Luke was saying, this led you to, down the path of taking action that ultimately led to something.

    Marni (00:36:16):

    When you were describing that moment. What it brought up for me was this moment where I went to go, I lived in LA and I went to go take a walk at the beach and I sat down and I just knew that I had to get a divorce and it just landed. And I just had to accept that there was, I couldn't figure a way out. And I remember walking back cause I was gonna go tell my then husband, you know, I can't do this anymore. And I imagined saying, no, let's stay together. And like, I couldn't do it. Like I couldn't not accept what was the truth. And I love, oh my God, I love that clarity. Uh, you know, like when it feels so strong, that way I'm like, I was gonna say like, listening is another quality of courage for me because we were talking about there's intuition and there's knowing, but sort of like action listening is a completely more to me active way of engaging with that inner wisdom. And divinity is like LA LA LA LA LA is a lot easier.

    Luke (00:37:18):

    I'm glad you just, you know, it's funny cause I'm glad you just brought it up that way. And, even kind of tying into Michael, what you asked was, you know, for me accepting when I became CEO of the Institute and, and I was there for as long as I was, and then I ultimately burned out, I literally had to come to a point where I was about to walk away from the exact thing I thought I had always wanted. I had spent my entire, like, professional life, building to this. And then it was like, it's not where I belong anymore, to get to that point of acceptance though. I wasn't listening. To Marni, which you're bringing up. There were signs in every direction. And I knew there was something that was brewing and I kept just, no, you know, Hey, I was well trained in emotional repression. I just had that.

    I had it right. I was on top of it. So I didn't wanna listen to what was like screaming through that inner voice. And it took me, you know, literally, you know, having, having a moment in the mirror and, and being broken down on the floor of my house to, to really come to grips with some of this stuff. And so that listing was really important. I think the other piece actually that led me the acceptance was when you're listening is honesty. There's a question that came in loving that reflection of, of just being instead of courageous and whether we could share those stories of when you made a big move, either courageously or by just being. And I wanted to tie that in, because I'll say it's, even though I have done podcasting before, I've never done it like this, I've never done it, where it was built around my journey, my story, it was a very safe way of doing it.

    It was interviews. I was backed by this beautiful, incredible brand and organization that was behind me. It was never like just me, and like putting me in front of a camera with everybody and put myself out there. And so I put this off for a while. I've been thinking about this for a long time and I put it off, and I'm here. And I think it's this being part. And, and I can't say it's one of the other, you know, just one of the other, it's both being and courageous that are moving through in, in this process, I've said it, I don't know where this is going. I am doing this right now because this is something I wanted to share with the world. This is a journey. It's a project, it's a piece of art, I hope. I have no idea where this is going.

    And so it's that being a courageous dance, that I'm feeling into, like right now and with a whole bunch of other emotions going along with that as well, I will say. You know, I'm curious, just in sharing that with you guys of, how have you also found that dance of moving up to that courage, but then at some point there is that moment where being is just flowing, and then you come out of it and you need courage again, and then you're just being, and then you need, right? And I'm just kind of curious what that brings up for you guys, or what that connects you to.

    Michael (00:40:10):

    It is a total dance. And I'm sure the listeners that are listening right now, and those of us that are here live, we always are being asked to take, to listen as Luke and Marni were we're talking about. So I'd like to invite the, the listeners in and to ask yourself, your higher self right now, just take a moment to close your eyes and bring yourself into your self. And just ask, all you have to do is ask for your divine self to be present. And here's where the listening that's going to be made real for you in this moment, ask yourself your divine self. How, how am I being asked to be courageous right now at this moment in my life, and trust that the answers are coming, even if you feel that you're not getting anything, accept that those answers are coming to you and trust that the answers are coming to you in divine time, maybe they're coming to you right now in the silence, or maybe not. Trust that those answers will come in divine time. And the final question to ask yourself that I think, think that we've alluded to, that is just as important is how will my action of courage? How will my act of courage, help other people and be of service to others. And just sit with that for a moment, and then feel free to say, thank you to your divine self for the dialogue that has been occurring, and that will be occurring. And then bring yourself back to ordinary consciousness.

    Luke (00:42:00):

    You know, what, what started to flow in as you were describing that are some, you know, some of those other questions that I realized, I asked myself as part of what you just kind of took us through. And in listening to ourselves that way, there's questions that come up around, you know, what is it that I am to trust at this moment when you're bringing up so many, you know, so much different change and the things that you've normally relied on that have been your anchor points that you've trusted in may be shuffling, they may be shifting. And so you're being asked to have trust maybe in new things. What is it you're being asked to have trust in similarly, what are you asked to have faith in, in these moments as well? And how are you connecting to that? And I, I think this, you know, kind of circling back into what you just brought back, brought us back to Michael, is in connecting to that divinity, that soul, that source that's within each of us is that if we can consistently find ways of coming back and touching that, and that becomes a source of trust, that becomes a source source of faith for us as well.

    It allows that dance to become more fluid so that we can write it. It feels like we're there in partnership with these different parts of self. And that that divinity is now all of a sudden more central to the way in which all these different selves move around, but we need these moments of reconnection and to ask ourselves the things we don't normally like to ask such as what are we having trust in? What's being revealed to me, what am I getting clear on that I don't wanna see right now? What do I need to be honest about, all different qualities that step us into this conversation around courage

    Michael (00:43:43):

    And all of those questions, fantastic questions that lead to the process of manifestation. All of those questions require the same thing to listen.

    Luke (00:43:55):

    Absolutely.

    Michael (00:43:56):

    And, and to remember, to listen and to remember to ask, so that we can listen,

    Luke (00:44:02):

    It's something you brought up and actually Marni. I wanna, I wanna kind of turn this one to you to see where you would like to take this. And this is a another question that had come in, is you know, a few things, one is how do we embrace that uncertainty to be able to, to have the confidence, the faith in the answers that are starting to come to us. So how to embrace that uncertainty, even though some of the answers are dripping in, but what that really is asking about is how do we tap into patience in this process? And so Marni, I'm gonna flip that one to you first.

    Marni (00:44:30):

    Well, one of, of the things that has been really helpful for me is understanding that every piece of the experience that I'm having is part of the process. I was on a podcast yesterday, interviewing someone about what I have been calling this gap, between the life I was in and the life that I'm looking to create. And she was really brilliant. She was like, urban legend is that the gap is like a problem, but really the gap is part of the process. It's like a step, it's like, you know, to get to one to two, you have to go to 1.1 and 1.2. And once I can embrace that the gap is like exactly perfect. And that there's like the tuition that I paid, you know, to go on the adventure of life. My tuition is buying me like the adventure of that uncertainty.

    And that, for me, especially in this recreation of my life, it makes me feel enliven, right? Like that's why I left my cozy sort of existence is because I wanted to feel like I was really living life. And my mom died at 64 and I was like 55. And I thought, you know, if I have nine years left of my life, do I wanna spend it looking at the same tree? You know, walking down the same street? Like, does that feel like my client said it so well, am I living life or is life living me? And so the answer for Christina is like, how do I embrace uncertainty? Sometimes I'm just like, this is-- I'm freaking alive. You know, like I'm on the journey. I said, I wanted to be fully expressed and tingly, and uncomfortable, and sad and joyful. And I was-- I'm in South Carolina right now. And I was riding my bike on this little bike path. And I was like a teenager. I put like, you know, like stage cooked music festival on my phone. I put it in my back pocket, like nerdy with my helmet, like driving down that little bike path. And I was like, like, this is like, this is making me feel enliven. And then, you know, and then I'm like, where are we gonna go next? You know? So I think that's my thing, Christina is like, I remember that this means that I'm alive.

    Luke (00:46:41):

    I love the reference to the gap that you, you just brought up. Right? Because I, I have referenced so many times of living in this space in between, in between what was, is no longer in between. What's not yet. And there is so much important living to do in between, because that's really the-- one of the images that that's been, you know, portrayed to me through the years is when that caterpillar becomes butterfly, it's not, you know, this, this immediate transition that's occurring inside of that cocoon. There's a period of time where it's nothing but goo. I mean, it's not, it's no from the in-between is a period of time where there might not be form and yeah, that's gonna be uncertain, but there is so much that needs to occur in between for that butterfly to emerge. And so we need to give that space, Michael, you said that divine timing, I've referred to that as Kairos, which is, you know, the, the divine timing.

    And I've fought this for, you know, my last 18 months of, Luke it's time to get doing something. Luke, what are you gonna do next? What is it gonna be? What is gonna be this? And it's like, I need to just keep giving it space to let it unfold. And when it starts to fall into place, I'll begin to recognize that and to trust that and to have faith in that, I've got something there that I still want to add into, but Michael, I wanted to, to see what you wanted to jump in here on, on this process, cause you know, you know these cycles well too.

    Michael (00:48:09):

    Well for myself, I so resonated with the-- what you said Marni. And it's just for me, I know that when I throw my little tantrums and my ego throws my little tantrums, like where is your relationship? It hasn't shown up yet. Like I want it now. It becomes so much easier for me when I surrender to the fact and I acknowledge and accept the fact that I'm not in charge of this. Like it's really not up to me. It's up to the universe. It's up to the divine, I believe. And so like once I recognize that truth, then it's like, all right, it just becomes so much easier. And then, then I adopt that beautiful energy that you brought in Marni, which you know of the adventure. It becomes an adventure when we embrace, you said, you know, when you embrace the gap, it becomes fun. It becomes adventurous. And I completely concur with that. And that's what brings about the laughter for me like, "Boy, aren't you silly Michael to want it right now. Aren't you silly?"

    Luke (00:49:07):

    Those are great energies for us to be able to connect to the, the energy of the adventure, the energy of the Explorer and energy that I've come to know really, really, really well over these last 18 months is the energy of the wanderer as well. And you know, to just allow yourself this space to, to be in that time before you select the next possibility, that seems to be coming your way. I've gone through that process. I've, I've looked at a lot of different possibilities and opportunities. I've started to lean into one or two that my gut was telling me. "Luke, just wait, man."

    Just let-- tell your brain to take a rest, get off to the side for a bit. Okay. And rest man. And just let it come. I wanna share this one back and also then see what, what this brings up for Marni and Michael, you guys started to allude to this, but I wanna bring it back of what brings you back to that place of courage and how do you keep returning to it?

    And so I wanna share this one on the front end. I'll be straight up with everybody. I am going to share a tiny little piece of this because I am not remotely ready to talk about it, but I have to give you the context of it. A couple of weeks ago, I went on my first ever vision quest in going on that vision quest, I was in Shenandoah for uh, 48 straight hours completely on my own inside of about a 15 foot circle, and water fasted only having water for that whole period of time. And it is one of the most difficult things I've ever done in my life. I can't wait to do it again. At the, the same in the same breath, but with everything I experienced, tremendous highs and really tremendous lows that you go through in a process like that, because there is no escape.

    You can't escape yourself. There's nobody to distract you, it's you, nature and that's it. And you're not moving. You can't run from it. And my mantra, that I kept coming back to that was part of the way that my intention got set with my guide, was to trust the ceremony, that this is a sacred ceremony that I was in. And to trust that ceremony, no matter what is unfolding in the moment, so to not get lost in the individual moment or experience, but to know that it's part of a larger ceremony, and as I concluded that process, and had the chance to sit with it and there's, I'm gonna be sitting with all of what unfolded for the next six to 12 months. But one of those things that became very clear to me, was to also trust the ceremony that we call life.

    That this is also a sacred ceremony. This is a sacred adventure that we're on and we don't know how it's all gonna end. We don't know what that is. We can try to navigate it safely as if we were trying to avoid the despair and the nightmare, but it's there anyway. And so for us to trust in that process to trust in that ceremony, to pay attention to what life is bringing us to listen to those things and to allow that to begin to unfold, and to trust that we're gonna know how to lean in, in those moments. And that, so for me, it was that idea of trust, the ceremony that could keep coming back to-- that got me through some really, really, really difficult dark nights in, in that 48 hours. And so for, Marni and Michael. I'm curious for you guys, of what do you use to, bring you back to courage? I mean, Michael, I think you just gave us, before a wonderful example of some process that you use. I'm curious, what else it brings up for you or what are those mantras? What are those things you returned to that reconnect you, to that courage that's innately within you?

    Marni (00:52:28):

    It's interesting. When you were telling the story, I was thinking, well, like life is a sacred ceremony, right? Like it can be so profound if we choose to look at it as profound, when you said this idea of wandering to me, I think that I have to wander back to courage, right? Because my brain will want to solve the problem.

    Luke (00:52:51):

    Yes.

    Marni (00:52:52):

    And Michael did these beautiful questions he led us through. And it's like the quality of the questions that I'm asking on that wander, will lead me back to courage. And so for me, it's meditating, it's journaling, it's literally moving my body. And I was listening to your show with, Tambre. And they-- y'all were talking about different ways that we bring in that listening. So for me, it can be boxing, it can be walking, it can be just writing or it can just be doing nothing. And then all of a sudden, like their awareness, the awareness comes. So I think it's allowing the journey to courage to be a wandering. So giving it that freedom.

    Luke (00:53:35):

    I appreciate that.

    Michael (00:53:36):

    I would agree with everything that's been said, you know, and I, these days I use, you know, meditation and journaling and all of those wonderful ways to connect so that we can listen. However, in my past, when I didn't do those things, when I didn't listen, I found that a rather unfortunate way to wander back, to courage was complacency. Yeah. And so even the lesser degree, these days in my life, but much more when I was in my twenties and thirties and probably early forties, it took something like being complacent, and then getting the whacked over the head by the universe with some unfortunate things to wander back, to courage to. So, and I'd be curious, your, your perspective on that as well.

    Luke (00:54:28):

    Yeah. I think that's extremely true. We can listen or we can be told, right.

    Marni (00:54:34):

    Yeah.

    Luke (00:54:35):

    Cause life can come through and tell us, okay, you didn't listen, I'm gonna show it to you. And now I'm gonna kick you back in that direction pretty quickly. Yeah. I wanna touch on something Marni the way that you explained everything. If I also look behind the practices that, that you were sharing there right. Of, of the questions, the journaling, meditation movement, I know it's true for you. True for me, I know it's true for Michael of also being in nature and connecting with nature, and all of those things require spaciousness.

    Right. And it's so much of, of we stack our experience of life one after the next, after the next, after the next. And we just kind of keep going and stacking all of this stuff right on top of itself. And we don't give ourselves that space that we need to be able to, to connect in these ways. I couldn't have recognized to the point, Michael, that you just brought up. I didn't recognize the ways in which complacency had settled into my life, because I was moving too fast. And so I was in that tunnel and just kept moving and it felt right, because it felt familiar. And so I didn't even realize that there was so much more that was going on there. And I was just, you know, at some point my soul was gonna say, this isn't for you anymore. You have basically become stagnant in what you're doing.

    And so I'm gonna talk back at you when you yell at me in a mirror. So, you know, it, Hey, I hope yours are in different experiences, but it worked, and, but it is. It's you know, it's so it's finding a way to be spacious so that, you know, and all of these practices create space, for us in one way, shape or form. And so I think that's, you know, that's certainly one of, one of the, the patterns there, but I wanted to kind of call that out its background. And so just before we wrap up, you know, our conversation today, I just wanted to, you know, kind of give the floor both to, to Marni and Michael for any, you know, maybe final perspectives or anything else that you feel in this moment you wanna express or didn't have the chance to say yet about courage or about this conversation we've had that you would just love to leave listeners for today.

    Marni (00:56:40):

    In the end, we can have these deep spiritual conversations and courage requires action. And I would say that the smarter you are, the better, you better beware is about avoidance. And avoiding the listening, avoiding the conversations, avoiding what you're tolerating and our world is set up with so many easiest ways to avoid. And there's a lot of really crappy things going on externally that we can just dive right into as avoidance. And it's really stealthy, you know, and life is super, super short. And you said a question, I think it was on that show that I listened to about like, you know, what is your gift that you wanna unleash in the world? Or like, what is it that you care about? What is it that when you do that flash forward, that you don't wanna have regret about and ask yourself that kind of question now, because you can ponder and take notes and all that kind of stuff, but in the end you gotta like, make it happen. You gotta do something bold and radical.

    Luke (00:57:50):

    Michael, I wanna turn to you, but you Marni, you just hit on something and this, this I'll make an asterisk next to this, cause this may need to be a whole other future show. But in bringing up that idea of avoidance so much of what we're doing in those, when we don't take some form of affirmative action to demonstrate, okay, I'm listening, right? I'm gonna honor the listening and I'm gonna, I'm gonna move that forward. We're avoiding the void, right? Because there's this void of, of uncertainty. And that's a big conversation, cause there's a lot of conversation around what avoid actually is, but we are avoiding this, this amorphous, unknown, dark shadowy uncertainty that we think is sitting there in front of us. And ironically, the more that we willingly move into that place of uncertainty, the more that we surrender to the fact that now I'm moving into an uncertain place.

    I know that, and I'm gonna go in with eyes wide open as I move into this uncertainty, but I'm gonna keep honoring the nudges and the listening that I'm doing along this way, it can move you through that. And we need that void all the way back to what you described of the Redwood tree needs to fall to feed the next 20 Redwood trees, right? It needs to feed the ecosystem. We need those voids in our life for the very next thing to be revealed to us, that avoidance energy is an important one for us to be able to acknowledge and be honest about with ourselves and then to be able to take that action that honors what it is that we have heard.

    Michael (00:59:08):

    We keep coming back to this theme of action. You know, we're already saying the courage requires action. Yes. And action is also a choice. And so in the fact that we have choice that we are sovereign beings and we always have choice and whatever choice we, we make, it's my experience that there is no right, there is no wrong. So I would ask the listeners and ask all of us right now to ask yourself, how can I choose to view this, void? How can I choose to view this uncertainty in my life that I'm about to step into, as adventurous, playful, joyous, and fun.

    Luke (00:59:50):

    Love that. Absolutely love that

    Marni (00:59:53):

    Because going on a walk is fun. Going on a walk is fun. And when you're doing in community, and you have support and know that you're not alone, then that's the energy of creation. So I just wanna say like, thank you for this, this movement that we're creating in the conversation.

    Luke (01:00:12):

    Thank you. You've literally just explained, you know, a major part of the, the driving factor of what On This Walk is, it is to go on this walk together and it's fun. It can be fun. It can be exploratory. We could have a whole lot of laughs even while we're going through some really difficult things at times. And so, I wanna thank, Marni, Michael, for you guys being here for going on this walk with me today. I have a feeling there's, there's quite a few walks for us to travel down as well in the future as well. And I just wanna thank you for the light, the wisdom, the experience, and the openness that you both shared with, with us together and, and with everybody who's listening today.

    Michael (01:00:49):

    Thank you, Luke.

    Marni (01:00:50):

    Thank you.

    Luke (01:00:51):

    Very welcome. And you know, for everybody that's, that's tuning in everybody, that's, that's listening to the show, we covered a lot of ground, and it's why, you know, this conversation of courage is a very, very big one. And so there's a lot for us to be able to recognize. You know, some of those things that we, we spoke about have to do with how is it that we can begin to tap in to, clear out that space, to take space so that we can listen to what is really truly coming through for us. Because when we listen that deeply, usually there's a degree of honesty that is brought in those moments as well. And when we tap into that honesty, when we can look at say and say, this is really what's going on for me right now, here's the stuff that I haven't wanted to take a look at.

    That's actually a lot of the stuff that's been holding you back from stepping into what it is that maybe you're meant to really truly do. And once we can accept what we've heard, when we can accept the honesty that is there, we free up so much energy within us. And if we combine that with the time that we're taking to tap into the truth of who we are, the source that is within us. Now we have got this wellspring of energy and that's what I would call courage, because then it's just innately just pours through into where we're going. It innately pours through, into that action that demonstrates and honors what it is that has been shown to us, even if that means stepping into great deal of uncertainty, for a period of time. It's a season of in between, but there is the other side of that, and that other side of it brings such alignment and congruency, and joy, and bliss.

    And that's the story that you get to tell several years from now to all of those loved ones and say, here, this is what happened. This is the path that I went down. This is the courage that it took to do so, but I'm really happy that I did.

    I wanna thank you all for joining us on this walk. We are going to be getting more into these cycles of change. We're gonna talk more about this void and we're gonna be talking about what are those things that allow us to pragmatically apply all of this in our day-to-day life, with the type of choices that we make, the type of choices and questions that both Marni and Michael shared with us today to ground this into the way that we live our lives.

    Thank you for joining me for this episode of On This Walk. Before signing off, please subscribe to the show and don't miss a single episode. Also, please rate and review us. This helps me greatly in getting the word out about this show. And remember, this is just the start of our conversation. To keep it going, ask questions, add your own thoughts. Join the ongoing conversation by just heading over to onthiswalk.com and click on Community in the upper right hand corner. It's free to join, until we go on this walk again, I'm Luke Iorio. Be Well.

Feliz Borja