012 - Ease or Easy
How do we navigate between ease and easy?
My walking partner for today, Michelle Bannister, is a former colleague of mine who reached out to me after hearing a few episodes of On This Walk. She spoke about feeling this energy around the difference between ease and easy and we discussed how both have appeared in our lives.
In today’s conversation, Michelle and I dig deeper into that feeling of being comfortable in the chaos, the struggle of keeping things simple, the desire to belong, the importance of self-compassion and forgiveness, and dealing with our inner critic.
In This Episode
(03:37) - The tendency to go to what’s familiar
(07:28) - Michelle’s decision to walk away from her dream job
(11:07) - Being comfortable in the chaos
(12:41) - Paying attention to how things felt
(14:21) - My struggle of keeping things simple
(16:43) - Walking on the edge between ease and easy
(20:54) - The toxic impact of social media
(22:30) - The desire to belong
(27:56) - Self-compassion and forgiveness
(32:02) - Michelle’s acknowledgment of her childhood trauma and the impact it had on her
(38:03) - Dealing with our inner critic
(45:01) - How Michelle’s ‘visual vitamins’ help her attitude and mindset
(50:43) - The practice of attunement and being intentional and present
(57:53) - Trusting the process
Notable Quotes
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“I was admitted to a Master’s Program for the fall. This will be my second Master’s and I’m 58 years old. So there’s immediately conflict in my head when I even think about going back for a second Master’s. I can’t even count how many people have gone, ‘You’re what? Why would you wanna do that?’. So the edge for me has been, what do I really want my legacy to be? I have nothing left to prove about myself. And this ties to something you were saying about the difference between head and body. I feel like I've spent my whole life trying to prove something that was going on in my head, stories that I was generating about myself, about what other people had to say about me. And this has nothing to do with that at all. This is a hundred percent heart decision and direction.”
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“I know what it’s like to have to pick myself up off the bathroom floor and to go through different issues in life. And I’ve recognized that actually, not only did I get through them, they got me closer and closer to being true to who I am and living from this central place of who I actually am. And we spend so much time protecting that essential self, that true nature. But it’s the protecting that actually keeps us from getting back to it. And once you go through that, those are the times you’ve been broken up, broken open. But those are the very things that showed me the path to ease and peace. And then I got the confidence through going through that repeated process of building into it to recognize, yeah, I can do life this way. I can do it from the center of who I am and share out from that place. And it's not always gonna be accepted, it's not always gonna be affirmed. And I'm okay with that too.”
Our Guest
Michelle Bannister - I am a human mom, dog mom, stepmom, mother figure, spouse, sister, and friend. I am a meditator, writer, coach, teacher and student (formally and informally), retreat facilitator, reluctant entrepreneur, former corporate leader, retired opera singer, trauma survivor, gardener, musician, artist, cook, bird watcher and feeder, runner-turned-walker, traveler, and wanderer. I have realized that contrary to conventional wisdom—which says the longer we’re with people, the better we know them—my loved ones are increasingly mysterious to me as time goes by. This becomes apparent as I slow down long enough to witness their inner worlds as they are revealed.
Resources & Links
On This Walk
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Luke (00:00:01):
Welcome to On This Walk, a show about the winding journey of life in all its realness. I'm Luke Iorio. Please join me and my brilliant heart centered guests each week, as we look to navigate this journey more consciously and authentically. Uncovering how to tap back into that sense of connection with self, with soul, and with something bigger than ourselves. Now, let's go on this walk.
One of the joys I've experienced so far of being on this walk with you is that I've heard from many of you that are tuning in and you're doing largely what I'd hoped. You're not just taking in the episodes, but you're using them to spark reflection, to create new conversations, to ask new questions. You're quite literally walking with these conversations and sharing them further. So thank you, thank you, thank you for that. And please continue, reach out to me, share with others, and that's how today's walk came about.
I heard from a former colleague of mine, and we hadn't spoken in years, but she'd tuned in and after having heard a few episodes, she decided to reach out with what was on her mind and in her heart. Within the early conversations we started on On This Walk, Michelle felt this energy arising around the difference between ease and easy. Ever since she reached out and connected on this topic, we both started paying attention to the ways in which ease and easy were appearing in our lives and where it'd been relevant to our past journeys. I don't wanna give away too much about our unfolding conversation, but suffice it to say, just how much easy usually led to a whole lot less ease within our lives.
And so with that, let me share about my walking partner today, Michelle Bannister. As I've been doing, I've been inviting guests to share a bit about themselves so that you can get to know them more than what might appear on just their typical bio. And some take me up on it in this way. And here's how Michelle introduces herself to us. "I am a human mom, dog mom, stepmom, mother figure, spouse, sister and friend. I'm a meditator, writer, coach, teacher and student, formally and informally, retreat facilitator, reluctant entrepreneur, former corporate leader, retired opera singer, trauma survivor, gardener, musician, artist, cook, birdwatcher and feeder, runner turned walker, traveler and wanderer. I have realized that contrary to conventional wisdom, which says the longer we're with people, the better we know them, my loved ones are increasingly mysterious to me as time goes by. This becomes apparent as I slow down long enough to witness their inner worlds as they are revealed." I love that introduction. It's a great way to get to know Michelle. Now, for those view that are new to the show, that are new to On This Walk, do me a favor, please smash that subscribe button. And now let's go on this walk with Michelle and navigating between easy and ease.
I think the question I had for you was that, you know, when you reached out to me for this conversation of easy versus ease, what was it that was in your heart when this message and that outreach really started to speak through?
Michelle (00:03:10):
Hmm. Gosh, I'm trying to really go back. You're, like you, I've reflected a lot on this since that initial conversation and I, there's so much in my heart, but I think on that day I've just started to notice for myself first and then for other people how we're gonna use this word a lot, I think today, how, how easy it is or how, you know, how we habitually, maybe that's another way to, to think about it, we kind of default to the things that we know or the things we've always done and that applies in so many different ways. But it doesn't always, that tendency to go to what's familiar, what's, what we're good at, what we know. Oh no, my gosh, I can say a lot about that. What I think I know, what my knower wants to tell me. Right? Oh, that's really come forward in the last couple of weeks.
That tendency to go there doesn't always bring us a feeling of peace or ease. It's just familiar. And so I've noticed now that this is really top of mind for me, how often when I do that I end up struggling more in the long run. Right? It's kind of a trade off between kind of a short term feeling of whew, got that down, and a long term feeling of this is actually right for me, this was the right direction, this was the place where I belong. This is really who I am, this is where I want to be, you know, any number of ways to think about ease or peace or wellbeing. And I noticed that in other people too. And so what was in my heart I think was just a desire to have a conversation with you and you know, because I love where you're taking this podcast in the hopes that other people could resonate to and maybe reflect on this topic for themselves
Luke (00:05:00):
In what you just explained, and I think a lot of what I've reflected on, right, is that there's this, there's so many different things that, that create stress and tension and discomfort inside of our lives, inside society right now and, and everything else. And we tend to shy away from that resistance point as you described, we might go towards the familiar, we might go towards what we did is we think we know, what we think is going to have a certain ease to it. But in reality that's kind of just part of the story we're telling ourselves, we're equating ease in that moment, we're equating it with easy. Because it is familiar. It doesn't have a whole lot of resistance to it, it's something that maybe, like you said is we've done many, many, many times before.
So it feels like, oh well yeah, this is like right in front of me. Why don't I just go in that direction? And I think it's, for me, I mean I'll even say recently, right? Is that I've had a series of conversations that have been opportunities of some things that after having taken a pretty nice break through the last 18, 20 months, some conversations have emerged of, hey, how about you get involved with this? Or hey, how about you get involved in that? Or, have you thought about, you know, joining this? And I can feel, like viscerally feel the pole to just be, this would be easy to say yes to, come on back and do it this way. And I know what that road leads to, right? And it's such an easy thing. Easy, like you said, we'll use that word a lot. There's this word again, it'd be so easy to say yes to some of those things. And so I guess maybe the, one of the other questions that I have just coming off of this for the moment is it almost seems like we've gotta do the hard thing and say no to create the ease that we're after. How does that sound to you?
Michelle (00:06:59):
Most recently what happened was, I have about 15 years experience now, which should make me an expert. Right? You know, in a very specific field. And I had achieved a pretty high level of, well, let's just call achievement. I had gotten to a level of achievement and really felt good about it. It was a place I never had thought I would ever get to. I don't have formal training in that area. I'd really worked hard to just get there on my own and I was really proud of it. And, but it, there was a turn in the environment where I was working and I no longer felt if I was paying attention, this is how I knew, I was paying attention to how it felt. Otherwise it would've been very easy to just keep trying really, really hard to make it work. And that's had been my default tendency in the past, right?
I'm just gonna try harder. And especially for me, what that looks like is I'm gonna try harder to make them like me, to make them accept me, to convince them that I'm good at this, to convince them that I fit to, you notice the emphasis on them. I'm gonna convince them that I'm okay and that somehow I deserve this. And that no longer felt good, really when I paid attention, it was driving me nuts. I wasn't sleeping well. I was experiencing a lot of stress around that. And so as I paid more attention to that, I came to the realization that this was no longer a good match for me. And that was a very hard realization cause this was a really a dream job. Pretty much anybody wanted it in my field. And so I left. And pretty much everybody who heard about that was like, wow, why did you leave? I'm shocked to hear it. And I had to also be very mindful about how I talked about it. I don't like to burn bridges. So I wanted to be very intentional about my, my experience of that being why I left. I still haven't really publicly said a lot about it because I'm very careful about, I don't wanna come across in any ways bitter. This was really about me. Well, or not long after that, I got approached with a number of different, you know, head hunters and people I knew in the field who were like, hey, there's this opening here. We'd love to talk to you. And I went on a couple of interviews, but you know what, Luke, I did not feel good about it. And it was weird. Cause I tell you, I could have done those jobs in my sleep.
And I went to my husband and I was like, you know, are we gonna be okay with losing my income? Which was significant. It was a huge impact on our joint, our household income. He's like, oh yeah, no problem. He's an economist. I trusted him, right? He's like, yeah, we're gonna be fine. You know, he's a couple of years from retirement anyway. So he's like, It'll be a good way to downgrade our whole experience of our lifestyle in preparation for retirement. Well let me tell you, about two months into me not working, he comes back to me. He is like, we're not gonna make it. So now I'm feeling the pressure, you know, of wanting to help our household and I'm having this internal conflict around, do I go back and try to get a job because it would be easy and I know how to do it and I've got all this, my resume is really tight and I was not feeling good about it.
I really wasn't. So I went back to my husband again and I'm like, I really need to know. I really need to know. Do I need to go get a job or can we make this work? And we had a lot of real, honest conversations about what that meant. And I'm very lucky that I have a husband who's willing to support me there because I know not everybody has that. But he's like, you know, we will make it work. And allowing that space. And you know, part of what I was really resonating with in other conversations you've had is I spent every day out of my garden, I started to walk more. I was spending like 45 minutes on walks trying to get clear in my head, what is it that would feel good? And I had nothing, really. I had nothing.
And being in that gap of not knowing was really uncomfortable. Because remember I mentioned that knower, I have a really strong knower in my head, Luke, who like, knows. And that knower was like, what the hell is going on? I don't know what's going on. And, and I just had to keep on saying, it's okay, we don't have to know right now. We're just gonna like, feel our way through and it's gonna be alright. And then I had a husband who occasionally be the economist would say, we're not gonna make it. And I'd be like, it's okay. You told me we would, we made a budget that's gonna be right. I'm, I'm calming everybody down. And I just kinda had to trust this process that didn't even have a definition. The process itself had no definition. But I have to tell you, I had so much peace, which was weird. Like even talking about it, it seems contradictory, right? It's all this not knowing, all this chaos. And you and I, about 15 years ago had a conversation where you said, you gotta be comfortable being in the chaos. And I was like, Luke has no idea what's going on. I was so mad at you that day I couldn't even tell you. I was like ready to, yeah. But that seed of planting that idea of what would that even mean? Now we come back full circle and I'm like, I think I finally kind of get what you meant. Cause it's a real contradiction.
Luke (00:12:29):
I wanna come back to a bunch of things. One of which was that, that contradiction, that there was peace there despite the chaos. We're gonna come back to, to that I think first though, so one, paying attention to how it felt and that so much of that in the early part of that experience was being missed. And that as some of the stress that was actually there was piling up, and although I need to convince them and I need to prove this and I need to do this, right? And it's funny because we go into this mode where it feels like the easier thing to do is to work hard to make it work as opposed to let the damn thing fall apart. Walk away or let it fall apart. And so we put all this energy into thinking this is the way to go until it becomes very hard, it's no longer easy at that point. It becomes very, very hard. But we are so afraid to let it all, all the pieces fall back down again. And because, right? That's, that goes to the chaos conversation, which we'll get to. So I mean, that stands out at me. It stands out at me in my own experience of how often I have not paid attention to how it felt. And I almost, right? And so now in this conversation of easy versus ease, what I literally felt in my body as you described that, was how easy is what comes from my mind and ease is what comes from my heart and my soul.
Michelle (00:13:57):
Yeah. That's exactly it. Yeah.
Luke (00:14:00):
And so it just, it drops in and it feels from a very different place now. The challenge is getting from one to the other. And what I, what I love about the kind of the honest conversations that you and your husband were having, because this is something that's also been very, very true for me, a struggle for me as well, has been keeping things simple. I love like creating things and building things up. And the next thing I know what could have been very, very simple gets a lot more complicated than it needed to be. And so if we apply that to our lives, we tend to acquire more and more and more. Meaning we take on more obligations, we have more responsibilities, we have more financial responsibilities, and we take all those things on. And in losing the simplicity, we lose the stability of that.
Whereas when we keep things really, really simple, it's like, oh, you wanna be nimble and go that way as opposed to that way? We can do that. Right? But it's so contrary, so contrary to what we do, but if we want ease, we've gotta look at what are the things that bring that ease and simplicity, for instance, is one of those key things that brings ease. We've had a couple of weeks since you first reached out and you've had this conversation kind of running in, in the background as you started to notice things. And I know that you've been making some of those career decisions. And I'm curious if you can describe what it's been like to walk the edge. Because I feel like the, there's an edge between ease and easy and it's easy for us to write to tip in one direction or the other. And so I'm just wondering if you could talk a little bit more of what it's been like, like the experience for you of walking that edge that allows you to ultimately then choose to go towards the direction of easy.
Michelle (00:15:44):
So since we last spoke, I was admitted to a Master's program for the fall, which will be a, I have a doctorate actually in vocal performance, so this will be my second Master's and I'm 58 years old. So there's immediately conflict in my head when I even think about going back for a second Master's. And I will tell you that part of that is external to me that I am willing to take on. Because when I share that, it's like, okay, couple things happen, right? I say, oh, I'm gonna go back for a second Master's. And people I've, I can't even count how many people have going, you're what? Why would you wanna do that? Like, well, first of all, because I'm going to do it in social work. And then the second gasping response is, why in the world would you wanna do that?
So a couple things come up in response to your question. So the edge for me has been what do I really want my legacy to be? It's, for me, it's about legacy at this point, right? I have nothing left to really prove and about myself, and this ties to something you were saying about the difference between head and body. I feel like I've spent my whole life trying to prove something that was going on in my head, stories that I was generating about myself, about what other people had to say about me. And you know, as long as I was in that I have to prove things, that's all a story in my head. And this has nothing to do with that at all. This is a a hundred percent heart decision and direction. And so that doesn't necessarily make it easy because I still, there's a part of me that's still very tempted to go back to this sort of, what do people think about it?
And I noticed, you know, that tendency when I would get these responses of, well why in the world would you wanna go into social work at this point in your life? And you know, you're starting yet another career and you're not gonna make any money and you know, all these things, it's like, it's gonna be so much work and why don't you wanna just like relax at this point? And I'm like, those things were not important to me. And the idea of doing all of those things, if I think about it and, and now I've had four months to really be by myself and really think about what feels good and not what I think about, but what, what feels right here. And I think about the suffering that has gone on for now. It, it suffering predates the pandemic, let's face it.
But it certainly has magnified many things. And not just the pandemic, but all the social unrest that, you know, we've been, we're now more aware of, you know, and I live in an area now, we moved during the pandemic, which is an, you know, there's an underserved population here. And so I get to see that all the time. And it touches me deeply that I am so fortunate and others around me, I'm gonna get really emotional here, are not. And so for me it's about even if I were to get to, I've thought about this, what if I were to get sick and I can't complete it? What if, you know, something happens to my husband and in retirement I can't do anything about it? And you know what? So what? This is a direction that I'm, I want to commit to. And the goal may or may not happen, Luke. We know that we don't get a chance to control the outcome, but I'm committing myself to a process. And even in the process, there's goodness there because, tell you what, as an intern, I will get to provide therapy and there's goodness there, even if I'm not great at it yet.
Luke (00:19:27):
You know, when we walk this edge, right? Is part of the edge is like the extent of, of what we have been comfortable with. And part of it is this kind of tethering kind of feeling where we start to get drawn towards something that is like stirring within us. Like the way that you describe the stirring to be able to do social work, to be able to give back in ways to pay it back in, in the ways that you have benefited in, in, in, in this process. You feel that stir. And at the same time there's constantly, right? These tugs of yeah, but wouldn't it be easier over here? Wouldn't, why don't you just come on back? Why don't you just do it this way? Nobody's gonna ask, people are gonna actually praise you for going back to work over here where they're gonna question you if you go in that direction. And it's, right? And it's, we have spent so damn long in this pursuit or this feeling of easy or feeling good, but in respect of not ourselves feeling good because we've proved it to somebody else or we've matched what other people wanted us to, to do, right? And that has so many of us living in situations and living out lives that were never the one that was intended for us.
Michelle (00:20:41):
So good. And what's coming up for me is, you know, why I even went into music to begin with, you know, that's a whole easy/ease conversation and of itself. And I don't wanna get too far down that rabbit hole, but the other thing that's coming up for me is the impact of social media. And you know, I left social media for a couple of years because I could feel the kind of toxic impact it was having on me. I recently made a decision to come back, but I did it very differently, very intentionally. I went back and I, I had like 2,000 friends on Facebook at one point and when I came back I went through and I eliminated anybody I didn't actually know. It turns out there were only about 300 people left of my friends' group and I, this is not to judge other people. I know there are a lot of reasons people are on social media. Yeah. So this is just for me, but I was noticing that even having called my friend group down to just that 300, I gotta make it smaller because what's happening is there are still people who will post things that I'm not that close to. And what happens in my head is I get this almost compulsive desire to belong, to belong to that group that they're posting about. And I don't, and it hurts me, but it shouldn't, I'm thinking about that. It's like, why does that hurt me? I don't even know those people. I'm not, but it's that feeling of being left out. And I'm like, you know what? But if I really sit back, if I go for a walk, go sit in my garden. And it's like, why does that matter to me? It doesn't. It really doesn't. But in that moment when I see it, it's like, ugh, stab in my heart. It's like, yeah, but not, not my real heart. You know? It's just, it's actually a fake heart that lives up here.
Luke (00:22:30):
You bring up something very interesting in this, again, this ease and easy conversation of in relationship to belonging. Because we go on this journey as we develop, where at some point we wanna, you know, individuate as children, as teenagers especially. And, and moving off a young adulthood is because we want to be separate from the unit that raised us because we gotta prove our own identity. But of course in doing that, we're also usually gravitating towards, but I also wanna fit in, I belong, I want people to like me. We go through that whole process and then ultimately though we reach a point in our lives, most of us do, I think that we start to really look at how is it that I express actually the truth of who I am. And now we look at it and go, wait a minute, I'm not gonna get, I may not get social validation. Because now I'm different from how people get to know me. And yet staying the way that people know me is easy.
Changing is not easy. It is the contrary. Because now it's like, what friends am I gonna lose? What reputation am I gonna lose? What money am I gonna lose if I, if for this relates to my like, career in that path, right? And so this cascade of that possible chaos starts to just say, wait, wait, wait, wait. Just stay over here. Keep staying with this group and keep with the people that belong and do all the appearances, whether it's on social media or in the community or around town, whatever. And we know inside of ourselves that we're losing something. We know there's something that we're not tending to. And the very thing that we need to tend to is the thing that brings us ease. But it can be very fearful and very challenging for us to go in that direction. And you know, you, you've described this journey and you've described that edge of kind of walking, walking around, but walking through and walking on this path in this process.
But I guess I'm, I'm just curious, it may not be a single thing, but what ultimately do you believe gave you the inner courage to walk away from easy, not accept the invitations, because right, we get through the journey and then the invitations come, no, come on back anyway. Right? It's crazy. And yet you were, you've, you've been able to resist those further invitations and stay true to this path. Now at some point there's a courage and there's a resolve that needs to set in. And I'm just kind of curious what that has looked like for you or if there was a moment or series of moments that helped you get to that point.
Michelle (00:25:04):
Yeah, I'm gonna get real personal here. You said that was what this was all about. Yeah. I'm on my fifth marriage and it takes some real courage to do that again. And I will tell you that when I got married the third time, people were saying, oh, you're still, uh, looking to get lucky, are you? Right? I mean, people can be really mean. I had my son say to me, who's now 23 and a little bit more skillful with in our relationship, but at the time he was a teenager and I think he was trying to express his care and concern for me. It just didn't come out that way. And it really hurt. But he said, Mom, I think you're just not made for relationships. Right? Those things hurt.
So to be the kind of person who's willing to keep trying in, in intimacy, in the face of being ashamed of the failures. And you know, I will also say that I've come to understand that, I've come to understand and be so compassionate with myself as a result of this understanding that this is a result of significant childhood trauma and that understanding has helped me be more compassionate of other people when they're not so kind to me. So it doesn't mean I always stick around and try to, you know, make up for their deficits, that wouldn't be compassionate to myself. But, but it's that combination of, kind of self understanding, how did I end up in the situations that I've been in and you know, what, what drew me into certain situations and how can I forgive myself and learn from that and, and continue on to learn and grow, which is, in my opinion, what life is all about forever.
And you know, and this comes back to ease and easy, right? It would've been very easy for me to, at some point in the past say, well, forget it. I'm just gonna give up on relationships. That would've been the easy approach. Because I'll tell you something, it's not, number five doesn't mean I'm any better at it. It just means I'm not as quick to run away. So that in and of itself is a conversation around ease and easy. Right? Staying in it when it's hard, Luke. Right? But I feel more grounded and more at peace in that decision.
Luke (00:27:43):
Yeah. You know, it's, it's interesting because in, there's so much that I hear in, in what you just shared and one of the things that sat with me very, very deeply is that what began to clear space for you to be able to stay, to go through the harder things, to be able to get to the ease was that space of forgiveness. And it was, it was the things that, and, and I would say not just forgiveness, but we also didn't say it was the compassion but just, you didn't use that word, but you described it because there is this forgiveness of the things that we feel like maybe we have done or we haven't lived up to. And there's also the compassion to be able to look at the whole of your story, the whole of your background, and be able to take that into account and use that also as a piece of how you're able to forgive and let things begin to melt away in different sense. To me, why that's so important is it creates a space or a spaciousness in us that we can start to see ourselves as we truly are again, as opposed to underneath all of the conditioning and all of the trauma and all of the history and the experiences that have moved us away from being as true to the, the, the core of who we are as we would like to be, is the genesis of the show and shared it in the very, very first episode was, you know, this moment that I have shouting in a mirror and that mirror shouting back at me and that recognition that I had spent years moving away from myself because I was chasing the thing that I thought was the thing to go after.
And that, I won't say it was easy in the sense like it just came to me, but it was easy in the sense that that's what people expected and that's what I therefore expected myself. So I cleared certain headwinds by leading into that. Right? And at some point I got to this place and for me it was just a complete, you know, just sobbing mess on the bathroom floor after these moments. Right? And realizing I'd left home, I'd left the home, the truth, the essence of who I am and I wanna get back there again. But to do that I needed to have compassion for where I was. I needed to have some self forgiveness of so much that I had denied myself or even rejected myself to have gotten to that point. There was so much that I needed to work through to create this spaciousness to unravel some of the things that I had conditioned within myself or that, that I feel like society may have have offered as conditioning and I needed to go through that process and then all of a sudden, you know, you, it, somebody had asked me about using analogy of this had to do with, with like moving towards goals and our purpose and I'm like, you push the, the, the boulder up the hill until it crests and then you're in flow and then it, it moves. Right? And the question had come in of, well how do you know when you're about to crust? You don't, you don't know it until you're running down the other side of the mountain, and we do this work. And then one day you look around and go, I feel ease, I feel ease. Not everything's fixed, there's still chaos around me, but like I'm okay with it because we're coming at life from the, the center of who we are, the central channel of who we are. And that creates ease even in the midst of all the other stuff. Right? And I guess that's, that was one of the things I wanted to come back to and seems very, very critical to your path is that at some point you found that piece amidst the chaos and you even said it's that trusting of, of the process and just being in the process itself. And so I was just wondering if you could go a little further and share a bit more of what that's been like for you. And I, I'm asking that both to elaborate on this conversation, but as you well know, I know the conversations we had 15 years ago and I know the exact conversation you're referring to before about chaos. And so I I know what this means for you. And that's, I'm curious if we could just share more on, on that peace amidst chaos that, that you're now finding.
Michelle (00:31:56):
Yeah. I'm glad we're going back to that because it was coming up for me as you were sharing that just now. Well, so at the time when we had that initial conversation, I didn't know I had any childhood trauma. So this is actually really the answer to your question for me is really rooted in my coming to understand the impact of my childhood on me. And, and I love how you really kind of emphasized this importance of self-compassion because there are a lot of people who don't have childhood trauma, but we can all use self-compassion. What I've discovered is that, you know, so I've got about 10 years in recovery now. At the beginning of that experience it was nothing but chaos. And I had a lot of struggle around one of the common ways that people who are, you know, and you don't have to have childhood trauma either to be in an experience where it's really stressful.
And so a common response to stress is to try to control things more, right? Because part of the stress is the not knowing the feeling of the things being out of control. So all of that is also what happens, you know, for people with trauma. So we can just talk about that. So I was trying so hard to just control every last thing I was trying to control myself. I was trying to control everybody else. I was trying to, you know, and I still have little voices in my head, the knower, right? That I referenced earlier, that is convinced a hundred percent that I have so much power that I can control things. Like if only I had not divorced my third husband, who is the father of my child, my youngest child. If only I had not divorced him, he would never have gotten his cancer diagnosis that we just found out about last month.
That's insanity. But there's a part of me that's so, that got habituated to this feeling of I can control everything. So that's where I was 10 years ago. And so over time and over a lot of practice of, and it really is a practice, I've equated this many times to no different than practicing an instrument right at the beginning. You're a beginner, you're lousy, you can't make anything work, you don't know what you're doing. You can't play a single song. You're frustrated with it, you wanna quit, but you know, you gotta keep doing it long enough. I told my son when he learned the, when he was playing the cello, when he is a little kid, he wanted to quit. I'm like, you can't quit till you can play something by a real composer, then if you still hate it, you can quit. Turns out, once he got to that point, he loved it. He didn't wanna quit anymore. And now he plays the cello as an adult. It's like, same thing with these mindfulness practices that we do. Right? You, you've gotta stay with them long enough till they feel like they're familiar. And even when I sit now, my brain is all over the map. It doesn't like change, but I know what it means. I don't make up a story about it. It's like, oh look, I got monkey brain today. Well we're gonna sit with that monkey brain a little longer, right? So, but at the beginning I made up all kinds of stories about what a failure I was and this is never gonna work.
And the same with running, you know, I started running at age 50, that first quarter mile voice in my head, who do you think you are? This is never gonna work. You can't run. You know, give it up, go back home, blah, blah, blah. Only difference then was I had a little bit longer in my, you know, recovery. So I knew, yeah, don't pay attention to that voice. That voice is a liar. So I kept at it till eventually I ran my first mile, felt like rocky, it was amazing. So that's what the difference is that I know better than to believe some of the voices that still come into my head. But it took me a while to kind of understand that's, that's just a, a habitual voice that comes from time to time. I can be compassionate with it. I understand where it came from, but I don't have to believe it. And so now when I encounter other people who maybe are early in recoveries or they're trying, you know, they're really struggling with something, oh Luke, I have so much compassion for how hard they're, they're really, really trying hard.
It's not, not only is it not easy, but they're not feeling any ease yet either. And so, you know, and so I'm, my only desire at that point is to tell them it does, not only does it get easier, but you will feel ease. Those things both will come. And so it's really hard to believe when you're at the beginning of it, really hard. And that's why that conversation on that day, I was like, Luke is full of shit. I was just like, hang up the phone. I wanted you to feel sorry for me. Why just, why isn't he just giving me pity? I wanted pity and like an answer and you gave me neither, no answers and no pity. So forget it. Luke, Luke is useless. Hang up the phone.
Luke (00:37:00):
So there you go, everybody. If you wanna know what it's like to, to work with me in any capacity whatsoever, no pity, no answer either. It's funny because there's, there's an element of, of what you just shared that to me describes that ease is the new easy. And, and what I mean, right, is that we do have to go through that process of change and we've gotta recognize that we have so much energy entangled in the way things have been and who we have been in, in those experiences in life, that it takes a while to unwind those. Now there are ways of unwinding them faster, but those usually need to be very intense types of experiences to create that rapid rewiring because the rewiring is either intensity or repetition. Those are the biggest ones that are there. There's an element of relationship, but I'll, I'll leave that aside for this conversation as well of how we can ultimately create that change.
Before we move on further, I just wanted to comment on the mind chatter that Michelle was speaking to. I'm very familiar with this chatter. Sometimes it's the inner critic, as Michelle described it, telling us that we're not enough. I've heard it myself as not being smart enough, not being old enough, not being quick enough, simply straight up, not being enough. The funny thing about this inner critic is that it thinks it's keeping us safe by holding us back. It prefers the status quo. Not taking risks or at least the risks that are out of the ordinary for us. It doesn't want us to be in situations where we're vulnerable or where we may risk embarrassment or rejection. It wants us to stay put just as we are, or at least as it believes we are anyway. I know I've had to go to work on taming this critic because it all too often became the loudest voice in my head.
And yet to quote good old Willie Shakespeare, thou doth protest too much. You see the inner critic, it's really just scared. It doesn't know any better. And where it once meant to protect you, it is really only protecting itself and the fragility of our egos. I shared this because this was the start of an awareness for me of how the mind, the ego and its part that is the inner critic operates. Understanding this started to take the power and the sting out of its comments and sting at times, it most certainly did. It knew just the right comment to get me to second guess myself or caused me to stop in my tracks. But I got to observe and know this pattern and recognize it as a pattern. One that arose anytime that fear was present. Anytime I was putting myself out there more openly or vulnerably. Hell, I heard of this, I was trying to create this show, but once I knew the pattern, I could also watch it rise and fall.
I could watch it come and go. I could watch it fight and resist. And then when it would finally run out of steam, when it knew I was walking up to a threshold, that threshold represented moving into a new phase, a new chapter, a new opening, quite literally. It could sense I was moving up to that threshold. And when you're at that threshold, you can either listen to the critic and be shouted back down or at least talk back down. Or you can listen to the voice and the stirring of your heart and your soul. It's the voice of the heart and soul that speaks much more quietly. But it's encouraging you, it's nurturing you. You've got this, just a little further knowing that another step creates more freedom, more authenticity. And over time, you find the more that you cross these thresholds, the more that the inner critic quiets, the more your heart and soul lead and speak. And the more aligned you feel to the truth of who you are. It takes a little time, it takes a little repetition, but it does change. Hold that within your hearts and recognize when you are walking up to the next threshold, when the critic starts to chatter and listen instead for that still small voice. It will lead you to where it is that you truly wish to be.
And so I, I appreciate the analogy of music. I've used the analogy of, of working out for, that you know, you've, you've gotta do the first rep before you can do 10, before you can do 20, before you can add weight. And you've gotta go through that type of process. And as you were doing that, what you became aware of and became mindful of, and I have found this to be true as well on my own journey, is that you started to become aware of that part within self that kept speaking, trying to invite you back to no, no, no, no, you've got to control this, you've got to do this, you've got to do it that way. But when we can, when we can understand where those parts emerged, and we can be mindful of them in that way so that we can be in relationship with them in a new way as opposed to be them to be that voice. Right? We change that dynamic, we change that relationship. And now ironically, that is something that gives us a bit of control, but it's giving us control from the point of being aware, being conscious of what's unfolding so that we can make a choice as to wait, is that real? Is that what I wanna listen to today? What are my other options? What are the other voices to the good, the bad, the ugly of all of this? And now let me take a look at all of those things. And it's funny that even then the step beyond that or, or the experience, I shouldn't say step, the experience beyond that is that at some point you truly do feel like more and more, I won't say all the time, but more and more, like you're sitting in the center of all of these different voices, parts, chaos, situations, et cetera. And so, even though the snow globe is still shaking and going in every which direction around you, it's like, oh, this is kind of a cool pattern. That's kind of beautiful actually. Right? I know I'm describing this a little bit, you know, uh, with, with the analogy. But it is like that, something becomes more grounded and anchored in us when we go through those types of processes. And I guess, maybe that's, that's kind of the question for both of us that I'm curious about at the moment, is what anchors you to that ease and to that peace today? Like how do you stay more anchored and tethered to it? Both maybe external practice, but also internally, what allows you to stay there?
Michelle (00:43:48):
Yeah. I really love your, your description of that snow globe. I totally relate to that. So I'm gonna start there and then kind of go more to the question because you're right. Those, those messages don't magically disappear. I kind of like how you're saying, it becomes more like, yeah, I love that, you're kind of at the center and there's all this going on. Initially for me that was really overwhelming, I have to confess.
Luke (00:44:16):
Yeah. Absolutely.
Michelle (00:44:17):
But I found that there were voices I hadn't heard before. Right. If I, and I could tune in, I could say, oh, you know, I've only been listening to this one that's really negative and keeps me limited, but I could choose to like tune into this other one that I've, I've never actually heard the one that says, if I could do this, I could do anything. Whoa. That's pretty cool. So that's kind of an internal process that keeps me grounded is like, and that reminds me a little bit that initially, you know, like when I first became a coach, you know, were taught all of these tools and techniques for our clients and you know, hopefully we use them ourselves. And I don't think I was such a great self coach in the beginning. I'm much better at it now. Not all the time, but a lot of the time.
So, and affirmations was one of those tools that I thought was just for the birds. And the reason is because I would write them down and then I would say them and immediately, a negative voice would go, that's not true. But I will tell you, you can't see my wall that's right here. I've got affirmations, I've got goals, I've got a vision board over there. I mean, I use all the tools now and it's really important to me to have that around me because I call it my visual vitamins. They remind me of where I'm going and what I really want to manifest in here, as well as out here and the way in which I wanna show up for that manifestation. So it's not just stuff, it's also the manner in which I want to engage with that stuff. Right? It's my attitude and mindsets that I wanna bring to it.
And I've been doing that now for a long time. Every single year I go on a silent retreat for myself. I just take myself away and unplug completely at least two or three days and I get really, really quiet and reflect about what was the last year like? I take, I've got a whole year's worth of keep doing, let go of, start and maybe try, right? I look back over that and I say, so did that work for me? What worked? What didn't? Why didn't it work? What, you know, why did some of that work really well? And is there anything there that I wanna change for the coming year? Right? Is, what do I wanna keep, pull forward? Because things change all the time and especially in a year, a lot changes. So I try to stay flexible in that, I have one for my relationship. My husband and I go on a retreat also, and we do the same thing for, you know, kind of how we wanna manifest our relationship. And I feel really lucky that he likes that idea as well. So that's kind of like an internal thing externally that some of the things I do to like reinforce that and also kind of on a daily basis is, you know, I, I meditate every day. There are days I miss, but I, I really don't let very many of those go by. And I also, I spend a lot of time, I try every single day to go either walking or running. I had a back injury recently, so I don't run as much as I used to, but I do walk and I, I live in this wonderful place where there's a lot of nature and so I, I really try to take that in.
I listen to the bird songs, right? I'm just not out there walking. I'm like, oh look, there's that sound. There's the sound of the wind in the trees. I'm looking at, well look at the beautiful colors around me. It's green, it's this color, that color. So I'm really taking in, it's all of my senses, this experience of being in nature because it's very easy, I love that we're using this word so much, it's easy to be mindless. You're out in nature and you're not even there. You know? Yeah. So I try to be so intentional about, be present. It's not that, that doesn't happen all the time, but if I notice that I'm not there anymore, I come back. It's like being in a meditation while I'm walking. And then I spend a lot of time in my garden nurturing growth and trying to make beauty.
And we have four baby hawks, they're juveniles right now in our backyard. And we, you know, if you get up early enough, you get to watch them practicing. It's amazing. So I, it's, it's pretty cool. So yeah. And if I get really worked up, I've gotten good. Dan Siegel has a model of the brain when, you know, when we start to get activated, it's like our brain is, you know, part of our brain is, and we don't want it to get like that, right? So I'm getting much better at noticing when, oh right, I'm like this, I need to go like be by myself and you know, get it back down, which is critical to me showing up with my full, wise, adult self. Otherwise some two year old's gonna be, nobody wants to interact with my two year old or my, or my 13 year old, which, you know, neither one of those are very fun.
Luke (00:49:13):
So I'll, I'm gonna answer the question as well in a second. But the, the piece that you also just described in there towards the end of knowing when we are drifting out of ease and gravitating towards just whatever's reaction, you know, reacting at any given moment, we can feel that activation, right? We can, we can begin to feel it. Now, for me, I didn't feel that for a really long time because I was, I think I've said this before on the show, I was unaware that anything like from the neck down existed because I lived completely from my head. And so I wasn't mindful of all of the signals that my body and my emotions, my feelings, my sensitivities were trying to show me at any given time. And so I was carrying a lot more stress and a lot more dis-ease than I realized.
And so I had to go through a process of beginning to tune into that. Now, because I, I've done that work for a long time now, for many, many years. I can tune into that and I become much more aware of when things are now back into that mode of, of dis-ease and of chaos and moving things around. And that's when I know, okay, I've gotta go back to, you know, double down on some practices or did I get off a little bit in some of my practice and what have you, now to that, that side of kind of the internal-external of how I anchor, I resonate with so much of, of Michelle, what you shared, because I do a lot of the, the same types of things in terms of meditation, exercise, time and nature, time in the garden. And so I do a lot of those things.
But I think the, the one first piece that stood out to me, which I realized as you described those different practices, was that I'd considering them, considering them like a, almost like attuned for, in the sense that it's what helps you retune or attune to that frequency, that vibration, that state of ease and of peace again. And so when I've done the practices, but I haven't done the practices in a manner that was trying to attune to what I was after, instead it's just doing the practice to do the practice. I don't get the same result. So I've gotta be very intentional and present. And I think it, it was true. Because I think part of that popped in when you described affirmations. That was something that for me, affirmations and gratitude were like, man, try it, not for me. Right?
And then at some point I needed to be honest with myself that I wasn't really doing the practice. I was following the steps, but I wasn't allowing myself to use them as a, a way of energetically attuning to what I was after, to truly be there and feel what I was saying, to feel what I was connecting to in meditation. It wasn't just 20 minutes of repeating a mantra or, or clear my mind. It was be there. And that's the other thing you brought up was presence. Because when we're present in those experiences, when we're present in nature, we can really fully start to connect with everything that's around us. Well, that connection feels like ease, it feels like peace, but it settles our nervous system further. We feel more connected as we are, who we are, with the environment that's around us.
And now we're less likely to have to go chase belonging as well because we're soaking up the experience that's there. And I know that I've been in both spots, right? I've been in the disconnected and I've been in the connected and I know the, the journey between those two back and forth many times over. And so what I realized then finally in how I anchor in, as opposed to giving you specific practices and Michelle, you, you gave so many to, to everybody, is that I recognize how important space is to me taking space. And I know I've talked about, we've talked about this on the show, is there's so much that seems like it stacks right on top of itself. Like one experience after the next, after the next, after the next. And we don't allow ourselves to take space.
And so when we're overworked, when we're running, you know, oh, after one thing, after the next, we're more likely to opt for easy, familiar, anything that is not on the resistance side of, of the equation. Because we're now tuning into just, just get it done, just cross off the list, just get to the end of the day, just forget about it, whatever the things are. And so when I feel that for me also, it feels like I'm revving up. For others, it can feel like a freeze. It can feel like I'm being stuck or a freeze response. There's many ways that this can look. And, but those are the moments that I know it's time to take some space. And I, I mean, I'll literally go and go out into nature because I want, I love going out into big nature because that gives me the full feeling of space.
And it's my chance to slow down again and figure out what are the practices that I'm gonna use to get back in harmony, to get back in tune with that state of ease, with that state of peace and all recognition of the grace that's all around me at the time. And so I just wanted to, I wanted to kind of give a different way of explaining that anchoring for myself beyond the, the, the practices that are so fundamental, but it's that attunement, it's that presence, it's that space taking that I think have been really important to me to, to anchor up.
Michelle (00:54:26):
Yeah. And I would just tack on that as you're talking about that what's coming up for me is that really we can apply all of what you just said about presence and slowing down and really being, you know, kind of mindful and intentional about it to anything. To, you know, we struggle with this, kind of speed up and get it done, you know, in so many areas of life. You know with, I know I've struggled with mindful eating. Same thing applies with relationships. Right? I see so many people, like they go out to dinner, they're both on their phones or they're, the little children are trying to get attention, but the parents on their phone, you know, so many things can benefit from just be present, just slow down. And that attunement works in so many different directions, that ability to just like try to see what, what is the other person feeling? And then how do I feel as I get in touch with that? Right? That's what that means. And we're missing it in so many areas. So when we can do it for ourselves, we get much better at doing it with others and in the presence of others without getting pulled off course, you know, in the way that I was talking about earlier. I've gotta prove something that happens less and less in the presence of others when we're able to do it first for ourselves.
Luke (00:55:46):
Yes. Absolutely. And it, it, it allows us to, to begin to really tune in and recognize, like you said, for ourselves, from ourselves, meaning from our center because we're not getting constantly pulled off center into all of these different directions. And I think that other comment of how we apply this mindfulness and presence and the recognition of the space that we're in a given time to all these things is that when we do that, we're attending to our lives and the experiences within our lives in a very, very different way. And all of a sudden you begin to recognize how, kind of, to me I describe it as fulfilled. I know not all of those experiences are, are pleasant experiences, but somehow in the, the richer experience of just being present to all that you're going through, as opposed to trying to distract and avoid and go find the easy answer or solution, somehow it connected us in a way that feels richer. It feels more full. And that in and of itself starts to perpetuate this, okay, this may not have been the best of times that I just went through, but I feel so different because I didn't avoid it. I didn't take the easy way out. I went through the process and I feel changed by that. And that just, it hits us. It, it strikes a chord in us at a much deeper level that we can carry with us.
I think the, just noticing is we, we start to come around on time right now. I think, Michelle, what I would ask you is that having been through this journey and, and still on the journey, right? I think the, the, the one big phrase that I wanted to come back to and then I'll, I'll see if there's, there's two cents that I want to add in there too, was to trust the process. And again, I know what it means to you to be able to get to that point, to be able to say that trusting of the process. And so what is it in you that's emerged that allows you to trust in that way?
Such a good question. Yeah. So I think it's really the ability to to, you know, to trust myself. I think my struggle with trust the process in the past was because I couldn't see the end. Right? And, and so, because that's what, not trusting the process looks like. I have to know where this is going and then I can trust the process. But that's not what that means. And I think the reason I struggled was because some part of me wasn't sure if I could handle anything that came. I wanted to know what was gonna come so I could get ready and then I'd be okay because then I'd be ready. But now I have this deep, deep sense that it, whatever happens, I can handle it. It doesn't really matter. I can handle it. And it goes back to that sense that you, you've talked about that agility, right? If I have to go this way and go that way, if I have to go this way and go that way, And not only that, but you combine that with this lasting sense of, and I have everything that I need. It's an abundance sense. I have it. There's really nothing that anybody could take away that would leave me feeling less. I mean, they can say anything they wanna say, let them. I could lose whatever it is that I have to lose and would it make me less? No. So that knowledge allows me to feel like I can totally be in this unknown process because it really doesn't matter where it ends up.
Oh, I love that. I absolutely love that. And I love hearing you say that, this recognition, that no matter how this unfolds, no matter what falls apart, I will not be less. That's huge. That's huge. And I think, you know, it's, it's, I also recognize in myself that comment you make of, well it, you know, I, I was sure I can handle it and then I get the sense that I can handle it well from my own, you know, journey. I've said that in, I can, I can do this, I can do that, I'll figure it out, blah, blah, blah. And it was such an ego, bravado, cocky ass statement that I would make to fool myself because it was, I can handle this because I'm gonna stifle my emotions. I'm not gonna pay attention to what's actually going on. I'm gonna force and control my way through this. And it was, I've got, I can do that. I can do that really damn well,
Michelle (01:00:23):
Oh, I hear you.
Luke (01:00:26):
Right? And at some point it was that I can do this where everything falls apart. That I'm okay with it. Because I think that's why, why what you said of, of just knowing that you're not gonna be any less stood out, like hits me really, like I can feel that, is because I now know I can do that when things fall apart. And I've, I've been through those circumstances and I know what it's like to have to pick myself up off the, the bathroom floor and, and to go through different, different, you know, issues in life. And I've recognized that actually not only did I get through them, they got me closer and closer to being true to who I am and living from, right, this, this central place of who I actually am. And we spend so much time like protecting that essential self, that true nature.
But it's the protecting that actually keeps us from getting back to it. And once you go through that, it's, it's, those are the times you've been broken up, you know, broken, broken open. And it's, I wish I could remember the writer who, you know, who describes its, um, of course there are cracks. That's how the line gets in. And it is, it's, it's, we go through those times and it's actually those times which are the antithesis of easy that have broken me wide open. But those are the very things that showed me the path to ease and to peace. And then I got the confidence through going through that, not like this but repeated process of building into it to recognize, yeah, I can do life this way. I can do it from the center of who I am and share out from that place. And it's not always gonna be accepted, it's not always gonna be affirmed. And I'm okay with that too.
Michelle (01:02:16):
Yeah. Love that.
Luke (01:02:19):
Michelle, I wanna thank you. I'm so glad and, and I, the part that I, I want everybody to hear was that this was a situation that Michelle, you and I hadn't spoken in years and because of something that stirred in you and you'd heard what we were doing with the show and, and you reached out to me and I, I so want to thank you and acknowledge you for putting yourself into this conversation, for raising this conversation and being here with us. So I think it's a very valuable one, and it's what I encourage for, for others is if there's a conversation that you are walking with right now that is in you, that feels like it needs to be expressed in some way, reach out. Let's do this either on the show or let's do it in the community because these are the conversations we need right now. And I so thank you Michelle for stepping in and bringing this to us.
Michelle (01:03:15):
My pleasure, Luke. It's so good to be a part of this and my honest gratitude to everything that you've planted in my past that is now finally bearing fruit. Thank you for letting me be on the show.
Luke (01:03:28):
Thank you so much, Michelle.
Thank you for joining me for this episode of On This Walk. Before signing off, please subscribe to the show and don't miss a single episode. Also, please rate and review us. This helps me greatly in getting the word out about this show. And remember, this is just the start of our conversation. To keep it going, ask questions, add your own thoughts, join the ongoing conversation by just heading over to onthiswalk.com and click on Community in the upper right hand corner. It's free to join. Until we go on this walk again, I'm Luke Iorio. Be well.