018 - Updating Our Understanding of Masculinity
How do we begin to unpack and update our traditional understanding of masculinity – for ourselves, our friends, our partners, and our children?
Today I’m walking with Bob Conlin – an ontological coach, a Professional Certified Coach with the International Coaching Federation, founder of The Alchemy of Men, and the co-founder of the Living In Love Incubator program – and Brad Golphenee – a Senior EVRYMAN Facilitator and Professional Somatic Coach for Men – to dive into a discussion regarding masculinity, forming healthy relationships, connecting with our emotions, and discovering our purpose.
Both fathers and great men who are committed to holding space for the feelings and experiences of those around them, Brad and Bob offer intimate details and valuable insight into how they became the men they are today.
In This Episode
(0:40) Two threads we’ll follow in today’s episode
(7:29) Brad reveals how leaving his last business allowed him to break a negative cycle
(11:08) The effect men’s groups had on Bob’s unhealthy mindset
(15:39) Why shifting their understanding of identity was challenging
(23:53) How Bob found peace and new possibilities in the unknown
(28:14) Finding the courage to ask for help
(35:32) The importance of finding community and accountability
(41:00) Addressing the daunting questions: “Who am I?” and “What is my purpose?”
(45:38) Leaning into discomfort as we raise our children
(54:00) The energy of being a father
(1:00:14) Bob and Brad discuss purpose
(1:06:02) Closing thoughts on masculinity
Notable Quotes
-
“When I got to that point, I realized how much help I actually needed. You know, self-sufficient guy, self-proclaimed ‘I don’t need anybody,’ and it really pointed to, wherever I was going, I wasn’t alone. Wherever I wanted to go, I needed an army of people around me to hold me up, lift me up, love me until I could learn to fully love and embrace myself and who I was becoming. And I really think that, that was the hardest lesson I learned was to ask for help… But that was the thing that helped me move through the in-between, the upside down – whatever you want to call it – that time.”
-
“To have people to hold me in the highest light and to hold me in new ways is so remarkably important because even those that were close to me, and I see this all the time, my family, even out of love, they would often hold me in old ways. Because that’s what they’re comfortable with, that’s how they know me. So going through very transformative processes and then going back into my old environment, I’m still held in an old way. And so it’s just an important distinction that as we change as men, we need each other to hold ourselves in the highest light possible.”
Our Guests
With extensive training and experience as an ontological coach, a Professional Certified Coach with the International Coaching Federation, founder of The Alchemy of Men, and the co-founder of the Living In Love Incubator program, Bob Conlin helps people bring awareness and accountability into action and receive abundance in its many forms.
Brad Golphenee is a Senior EVRYMAN Facilitator and Professional Somatic Coach for Men who has been involved with men's groups for 15 years and professionally working with men for 10 years. Brad holds a BSBA from the University of Denver and has continuing education in Shamanic Studies and Somatic Experiencing for Trauma. Relationships and parenting are topics that Brad loves to process with his client base.
Resources & Links
On This Walk
Brad Golphenee
Bob Conlin
-
Luke (00:00:01):
Welcome to On This Walk, a show about the winding journey of life in all its realness. I'm Luke Iorio. Please join me and my brilliant heart centered guests each week, as we look to navigate this journey more consciously and authentically. Uncovering how to tap back into that sense of connection with self, with soul and with something bigger than ourselves. Now let's go on this walk.
So there are two threads that are coming together in today's walk. These two threads have been present with some of our conversations so far, but we really haven't spoken about them head on, and that's just simply where we're gonna go today. So the first thread is that this is partly what actually drew this conversation, the two men that I'm inviting in today together, is that at times we have this feeling of living our lives almost as if we were in two different worlds, living divided as it were, as Parker Palmer used to talk about.
On one side, we have what seems to be our normal waking life. It's the way we present ourselves to the world and our work, our relationships, our lives. It's the way most people know us. It's the job or the career that we've held or not held for however long. It's the way in which most people would describe us. It's the life as most people looking in might think we have. That part of life, this part of life is the one that is following the path that is expected, that we are expected to follow at this point. This is what life looks like on the outside, we'll call that the outer world.
Now, on the other side, this whole other world, it's within us. It's the world of change. It's the inner stirrings, the inner dialogues, the ups and downs of our inner landscapes and inner climate. And once we begin paying attention to this inner landscape, once we stop denying the stirrings and the inner whispering that are trying to get our attention, we can begin to become more aware of how life is out there versus in here. And how in here is beginning to want something much different than what's out there.
And that's where I remember walking through so much of my life was this feeling of being in between worlds where I could feel that my inner compass wanted me to head in new directions, but there were so many responsibilities, so many obligations, commitments, and downright entanglements with the direction of my life where it was already headed. And so, in fact, so much of that was actually working out really, really well for me. And so those additional questions started rattling around in my brain like, are you nuts? What are you thinking about? Why would you change this? Be more grateful for what you have? And so on. There was so much mind chatter that was coming at me, but I could not not see that my life was no longer truly in alignment. It was really good, but it wasn't aligned. It didn't feel right. It felt like something was missing, like something was off.
And that is when the two worlds started colliding, because it was time for more and more of what was within me to come out. And that meant significant change, in changing of the way that a lot of people knew me. And the two men that are gonna come on in just a moment, totally understand that journey, not only personally, they've been through a lot of this, they also understand it professionally because of all of them that they support. And that's just the first thread. I got one more thread that we gotta introduce here too, because it had a big significant role on what the first one is. And that second thread is the old paradigm of masculinity. And that's part of, as I said, what was keeping me devoted to this older storyline. You see, the old paradigm of masculinity, to be honest, is one that's built very largely to serve both the ego and the outer world.
It's one focused on outer achievements, on survival of the fittest. Although that in and of itself is a myth and a misquote of Darwin's work on dominating on being the toughest and the strongest. And that didn't simply mean physically, it meant accolades, it meant power, it meant prestige. It meant all of these things that meant something to the outer world. And so the lore of the imbalanced masculine paradigm became the norm. And it keeps you locked in place because change is especially ones based on feelings and emotions, on your interstate, on wanting to be authentic and aligned to your true nature. Well, hell, that's just not what society wants from men. At least it hasn't. Maybe it's changing and that's gonna be part of our conversation today.
So as I, I bring on our two walking partners today, I do also just wanna say this old paradigm as I described it, of men or of masculinity, I should say, it is a bit of a generalization. I do wanna be fair in that because there are cultures around the world that have a much more balanced relationship to both the feminine and the masculine, the inner and the outer to the material world, as well as the world of the earth and the world of the spiritual. There are societies and cultures that do have that, but I'm speaking by and large the generalization of western society and the imbalance of the masculine energy that has been present in it.
And so with that, let's not put it off any further, I wanna bring on two extraordinary gentlemen who have been doing this work and you're gonna help me navigate through this conversation today. First, let me introduce you to Bob Conlin. Bob is building a crucible of men to catalyze the transformation of outdated masculinity. You already know where we're going here. All right, so a men's alchemist, coach, author, leader, husband, and father, Bob believes the relationships we have with ourselves, those we love, and those we lead have the greatest impact on our life experiences. Bob's been featured on ABC World News, CBS, NBC, Good Morning America. Bob has extensive training as an ontological coach. He's Gottman trained. He's a Professional Certified Coach with the International Coach Federation. He's the founder of the Alchemy of Men, the co-founder of Living in Love Incubator program, which he co-leads with his wife. And Bob believes that when we bring our awareness into action, partnered with accountability, the result is abundance in its many forms.
And I have a feeling this is gonna tie really well with the next gentleman I'm about to introduce you to, which is Brad Golphenee. And Brad is a Senior EVRYMAN facilitator and a Professional Somatic Coach for Men. Somatic very, if you guys are not familiar with somatic work getting into our body, something very fundamental for men's work, like really critical for men's work. Brad's been involved with men's groups for over 15 years. He's been professionally working with men for over 10 years. He holds a BSBA from the University of Denver and has continuing education in Shamanic Studies and Somatic Experiencing for Trauma. He lives in Sandpoint, Idaho with his wife Maria of 28 years, as well as their three horses, two dogs and multiple chickens. Their two boys are grown and actively involved in becoming more human. Love that. Relationships and parenting are passions and topics that Brad loves to process with his client base. And if he is not working with a client or planning the next group retreat, he can be found skiing, paddle boarding, hiking, horseback riding, clearing the land on this tractor. Oh that's funny, inviting Luke to join him out on the land. That's a new one I saw in there. And to learn more about Brad, you can check out his website bradgolphnee.com. So with that, for everyone joining us again, if you are not already subscribed to On This Walk, do me a favor, please hit that subscribe button. And now be ready because it's time for us to go On This Walk with Bob and Brad as we walk with uniting our worlds and updating our understanding of masculinity.
So Bob, Brad, I wanna thank you guys for being here today and, and joining me in this conversation.
Bob (00:07:09):
It's an honor man. Thanks for the invite. And so great that just be in the presence of someone like Brad too, like powerful men doing powerful work is just such a gift. So honored to be here. Yeah.
Brad (00:07:19):
Yeah. Luke, I can't, I can't express my gratitude enough too, for the invitation. And Bob, such a pleasure to be here with you.
Bob (00:07:27):
Likewise.
Brad (00:07:27):
Yeah.
Luke (00:07:28):
Gentlemen, I think maybe if I just toss it up this way, you heard my intro, we've certainly had some of these conversations offline as well. And I'm just curious when, when you hear me describe these two threads, the way that I did, of these living in two worlds living divided and the impact of that second thread of what has been the, the older paradigm of masculinity. I'm really, I'm curious what already starts to come up for you guys. Brad, actually, if I could, if I could just begin with you to see what begins to surface.
Brad (00:07:57):
Yeah. Immediately, Luke, my own personal story surfaces of what really led me to this space. And just real quick, so not too long ago, I was immersed in my own business. I have created a number of businesses in my life. And my last business was in the property management, vacation rental field where I was managing hundreds of homes, very expensive vacation homes and running housekeeping departments and maintenance departments and, and, and everything. And, and that was my life. And, and it really provided for me financially and it provided for my family. And so as I look back, there's no regrets, but the impact that it had on my nervous system, the impact that it had on, on just me as a human being, it got to the point where I was just fried. Absolutely fried. I was on 24/7. Every time my phone would ring, my body would tense up, my body would just lock up because I knew it was a problem. I knew it was a problem.
And so what ended up happening for me is I started growing a critical mindset where I started looking for what was wrong. And in business, what I realized is that I was often rewarded for finding what was wrong because I was a problem solver. So the more I look for what was wrong, the more I found things that were wrong. And it just, it was a, a negative cycle that I found myself in that affected how I related to my wife, how I related to my kids, how I related to friends. And I found myself very much alone in the space. I found men's groups, uh, about 15 years ago. And luckily in our community, we have a very sophisticated men's group organization. So it was like literally a fish coming into water. I could breathe again. I felt, I felt the power of being witnessed by other men. I felt the power of hearing other men's struggles and challenges. And with that, I started to open up. And as I started to open up, I found that actually my old life was way more dysfunctional than I ever had realized consciously. And so it was a slow journey from there of really transitioning my life in the way that I wanted. And so today, 15 years later, you know, I have a full-time practice. I am a Somatic Coach. I do one-on-one work, I do group work. I, when I'm not working, I'm on my land and I'm doing, I live where I wanna live. I live how I wanna live, and I can choose to do things in my life, like be here and connect with both of you. And I just love what I have created in my life, partly because of other men challenging me, and then me learning also how to give back and how to help other men on their journey. So it really does strike a personal court. Yeah.
Luke (00:10:58):
Bob, I, I wanna give you some space before I follow up cause there's, there's quite a few things there that I wanna bring into the thread of, of what we're talking about. But Bob, let me give you some space to see what's rising for you.
Bob (00:11:07):
Yeah, I I mean it's same story, different circumstances, you know, like it's, it's uncanny how similar my journey has been. One thing you did mention in the intro was this notion of gratitude, like needing to be more grateful for what you have. And and I found that in my experience, the way I was holding gratitude was actually a trap. It was a place where I got to hide, whereas I should, I should just be more grateful for what I do have and the experience of life that I'm living and, and ultimately kept me, it kept me stuck. It kept me from not listening to that inner voice that was, you know, by time I could no longer listen to it was screaming at me. Myself too, like, I, I had a very external driven experience, you know, in my twenties and thirties, you know.
And ultimately what I learned in hindsight was I was really trying to prove something to the world. I was trying to prove something about who I was, that I mattered, that I was lovable, that I could, could make a difference. And while that afforded me some, some success, you know, I achieved a lot of the cash and prizes that I, that I say that you would want in life. You know, I had a great job. I had a, I had a career, I had a trajectory up the corporate ladder. I had a really cute 10, younger than me girlfriend. I had a cool car and a, you know, the house. I had all the stuff. And when I got to the pinnacle of my career, I remember I had been driving for this promotion for so long and I finally got it. And I remember coming home and sitting on the couch about a week after I got it. And I was like looking around the incredible life that I had. And I was like, is this all there is? Right? And that's when I was at that proverbial crossroads of my own life that here I had achieved and done everything I thought was supposed to make me happy, have happy and really fulfilled. Like it was really a conversation about fulfillment, like being fully expressed on the planet and the way that I was yearning to be. And you know, I got to that point. I was like, well, this is all there is. What's the point? You know, what is the point here?
And that's where really the second chapter of my, my self development journey came in. The first one was when I got sober in 2007. And that was my introduction to, to men's, men's groups, you know? And one of the coolest things that happened in that experience was I was in a room with other men who were talking about what I had been thinking. And it helped, I mean, getting emotional was thinking about, it just helped to normalize my experience of where I was at in my life and how my decisions and my best thinking got me to where I was. Right. And, and my knowledge had run out. I, when I got to that crossroads in my career, I didn't know where to go. I had no idea what was next. And it was, I mean, to say despair sounds pretty significant, but that's where I was. I was in my early forties, like probably the traditional midlife crisis, you know? And it was that moment where I knew I needed significant change and significant direction and I had no idea like where to go.
Luke (00:14:08):
Yeah. You know, it's, it's, I mean each, each of us have, have found it our own ways, but I mean, very directly, I've asked the exact question, Bob, that you just brought up as, is this all there is, right? You, you get through all of these different things that you've checked these boxes and you know, when you check enough boxes, you're supposed to get all the, you know, right. The, the prizes and rewards that you described. And even the way you describe having gotten the promotion sitting down and going, I'm nowhere. I thought I'd be happy. Right. I thought that was gonna be it. And I, I honestly, I can't tell you the number of times I've had that conversation with friends, family, clients where whatever that thing was that they were working towards, they get it. And like, there's just no payoff or the payoff lasts for like a day, a week. It's very, very short lived. And, and, and very temporary.
And I think there's this other thing that, that I wanted to go back to as well with Brad, something you brought up is that sense of providing. And it's, because I'm curious on not just this journey of living between the two worlds, but very specifically talking from that masculine paradigm standpoint, that sense of providing is critical and it's, it's such a driver for us and in, in good ways. I mean, I, let me be clear here in very, very good ways, and at what point are we past providing and just locking ourselves into a life that is not fully expressed, that is not, you know, aligned. And so I'm, I guess I'm, now maybe that's a part of the journey. I'm also curious for, for both of you of like, how did you face that? Like when you started to make the change or, or knew you wanted to make the change, how did you start to approach this notion of, am I still providing, or what is that gonna look like? How is that gonna change? Bob, if I start with you, what did that look like for you?
Bob (00:15:53):
Yeah, I think for me it, you know, it was really, if I'm not that, then what am I? Right? If I, if I'm not this provider, if I'm not, you know, this tough guy, stoic dude, like who am I? Right? And it, and again, this is like all in hindsight, like I was really looking at how terrifying it was to be anything other than that. And again, like I didn't know what, what else was out there for me or who I got to be outside of that, of that paradigm, right? And, and like we need, we need providers, right? We need, we need that mash clean container, we need that. Get a done attitude. You know, we need the guys, you know, bouncing through doors to go save people. Like we need, we need strong, solid men to do that. And, but there's, there's so much more beyond that, right?
There's so much more that's that I, I think I didn't even know that there was a conversation to have around it or that there was, hey, you get to have a whole complete experience of emotion because you're a human being. That was one of the biggest breakthroughs I got in my early work with, with my own coach. And I remember how much I was making wrong, what I was feeling in the moment. And she was like, you get to feel this like you're a human being and human beings can feel the whole spectrum of emotion. And, and that, that was kind of the seed that got planted for me to start seeing, well if I'm not this provider, tough guy, stoic dude, then you know, oh who am I? Right? And for me, not to start another tangent, but for me it was, well, what's your purpose? Like what, you know, who are you and why are you here? Those, you know, two huge, big questions I think we ask a lot in our work. It really had me start asking like, well I'm learning who I am still to this day, right? I'm learning who I am and why am I here, right? What is my purpose on the planet? And that, that really started the opportunity to get out of the traditional paradigm. I think a lot of us get like put into.
Luke (00:17:49):
Yeah. You know, it's, it's interesting cause it, I don't know why this just came up, but it's so clear of early in my journey before I actually went down the track that, that I had a lot of success with. The funny thing is, was that we were completely and utterly supported by my fiance and now wife of coming up on 19 years. We were completely supported by her, her teacher's salary, living in this like 660 square foot apartment. And what it did, and it took me so long to figure this out, I'm only like literally connecting some of this now in, in my head of, of the string of thoughts was it created a container. It created this period of time for me to figure some things out. It led me to the path that I went on that worked very well for a while.
And then as I went down that path, I then became more of that traditional, typical provider in that sense. And things were going well and I felt kind of the provider role, the obligation, the responsibilities all come with that. The commitments come with it and then take it now when I need to make the change. And I had to go through this, it's, it's some of the work I've supported a lot of others, both men and women with, is that if you're gonna make that type of transition, how do you create the space, the container for it so that you can still meet your needs. You still got money coming in the door. Like you're doing all the things to still take care of what needs taken care of and how are you beginning to create other space so that you can do this other work and allow yourself to connect to what's the new path, what is the purpose, what is the clarity, at least the next stage of clarity on that journey.
For me, and this is something, Bob you mentioned, and Brad, this is where I want to ask you to weigh in, especially. I also remember when, for me it was mindfulness that first connected me to the fact that I actually had a body that something existed from the neck down. And I, it was, it was like a foreign thing. Like what do you mean I'm allowed to feel, I wasn't aware of this. And so all of a sudden I got to reconnect with everything. And I think Brad, I'd love to hear, you know, some of that because you've got your own journey where you said you recognized in hindsight the impact that this was having in your nervous system. And then I, I mean I know you're doing the somatic work now, but I know you're doing that because of the way you connected to it through this journey. So I'm hoping you could just share a bit of, of your own journey and then some of the work you've done of helping men face this. Cause I think that emotional reconnection, it's a huge part of owning the next steps for ourselves.
Brad (00:20:13):
Yeah. It's so funny because as I receive what you're saying, Luke, there is, in the transition, at least for me, and I see it with so many men I work with, there is a high degree of anxiety in this transition space of my old life and then inviting in a new life and this, this in between space of not really knowing what's gonna happen or how things are gonna work out. And that was true for me as well. Uh, it was so unsettling because yeah, I am a provider. And as you talk about being a provider, what also comes up for me is that competent protector in me. That's just hardwired in me as a man. And so my need to protect my family, my need to care for my family, to make sure my boys are secure, to make sure my wife is, is secure. It is, it is so strong. It is so strong. And as I feel into that letting go of old ways that financially work. But, but in my nervous system, in my physiology, it's like there is such a misalignment, right? And every day waking up know that I am misaligned. I am not in attunement with my highest self and still operating on a daily basis. It's almost, and I, and I say this, I say this with actually wanting to make it even bigger than it is because it's almost a moral violation. It's almost operating against what I know is my truest highest self, but still operating in a way that I feel I have to because I don't know what else is out there. And in a big way. And one reason why I coach is so many men, they don't know what they don't know.
And so to make that leap, to make that transition into something else is just, it's so uncertain and it actually, there's a lot of pain there. And so, so that transition is what I hear you talking about. And ironically it is part of the process. We have to go through it, right? We have to go through that unknown space. And I know I did. So it took me years to cycle through and to finally let go of my old business to finally let go. And it took years. But during that transition, I did create that containment, I did for myself. And thankfully I learned how to do that, right? I learned how to create a contained space so I could gracefully transition rather than just throw everything out and be in this unknown void where it almost feels like a free fall in this void space. And then try to dig myself out. And that's what I see a lot of men do. They just throw away. They said, I'm done and, and I let everything go. And now they're in free fall and they're in this void. And, and that's not always the best way to transition.
Luke (00:23:19):
When we use that phrase of midlife crisis. Like we can immediately picture, you know, the guy that packed it all in went out, got the red sports car, got, you know, the, we, we know the paradigm, right? We know that stereotype and joke.
Brad (00:23:28):
Mine was silver, by the way.
Luke (00:23:30):
Yours were silver? Your car?
Bob (00:23:32):
Mine, mine was an Outback, a gray Outback.
Luke (00:23:37):
And so, you know, we, we know there's the, the drop everything and pivot approach that usually ends in not good things, but that void, and this is what I want, I wanna see it gets more perspective from both of you on this because I think I'm gonna say this in two different ways and, and one very intentionally to see what it brings up is that void space is so anxious, anxiety building for a man because it's, I'm, I'm both a provider, I've gotta have clarity, I've gotta move this forward. I've gotta have a plan. I don't like just sitting. I need to, to be doing with my energy. I need to be moving something forward. Because that's part of how we feel. The perception of control, for instance, or the perception that everything's gonna be okay. And that void space is like everything, like all the attachments are popping off and like you are feeling like you're in that free fall to be in that space. It also is, I would equate that to being back in the feminine because that void space is going back into the kind of the womb of the creation center, right? And so now it's, it's, it's even more foreign to the way most of us have been conditioned to be men in masculine culture. And so I'm curious, because to me that's part of also being back in touch with emotions, learning how to process, is that we need to learn how to be in that liminal space in this unknown space and be okay with the fact we don't know, we don't have certainty. We don't get to create that right now. We've gotta be okay being in the unknown and being in this space. And that is, I would again liken that to a much more feminine energy, which is what we're being asked to rebalance within ourselves.
I'm curious what that brings up for you guys. Because this sometimes leads to a very interesting conversation with most men because they don't understand, most have not been introduced, I should say it that way. Most have not been introduced to the fact every human being on this planet is walking with some combination of both masculine and feminine energy. And these are supposed to be walk, working in balance with one another, not equal, but working in balance. So I'm just curious what, maybe Bob if you start, I'm just kinda curious what what that starts to bring up for you. Because that void space was so important and so terrifying.
Bob (00:25:47):
Yes. Oh my goodness. Yes. I'm, I'm reflecting on my own story and it's like, it was the gauntlet of my humanness in, in that moment. And, you know, it was that time where like I was so clear on what I was doing was not who I wanted to be, right? And I was very comfortable in, in the roles that I was, you know, that I placed myself in. It helped define who I was in many cases. And without that, again, asking a question, who the heck am I? And then the getting present to what I actually wanted, right? Like in most days of life that I'm living now, getting like, how the heck am I gonna get here? Right? And like, the decisions that I had to make were, were terrifying. You know? It meant, it meant resigning from a 20 year career. It meant removing myself from a wonderful relationship, but I knew that that woman wasn't my woman, right?
It meant like really facing my health and my other opportunities in my, my own life head on. And there's, there's this like, I'm gonna paraphrase it. There's this beautiful part in the book, The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho, that he talks about one of the hardest or darkest times that we can face as, as human beings is, is getting present to the thing that we actually want and getting present to who we can actually be in that process and not taking action on it, or not knowing how to act. And it's almost like he says, like, it's almost better to not even be present to the possibility of your life and not act on it than be present to it. And I, so like when I read that in the book, it was like, oh my God, that was my gap. You know? That was my, you know, that was the gauntlet of my humanist right there.
The thing I'll add to that too, is like when I got to that point, I realized how much help I actually needed. You know, self-sufficient guy, you know, self proclaimed, I don't need anybody. And it really pointed to wherever I was going, I wasn't alone. Wherever I was, you know, where I wanted to go, I needed an army of people around me to hold me up, lift me up, love me until I could learn to fully love and embrace myself on who I was becoming. And I really think that that was the hardest lesson I learned was ask for help. And then that's, I mean, still to this day, it's hard for me. But that was a thing that helped me move through the in between, right, the upside down, or whatever you wanna call it. Right? Like that, that, that time. Yeah.
Luke (00:28:15):
Why do we have trouble asking for help? I won't say this specifically impacts men more than women, but perhaps, maybe I'll say it this way. It's that it's more an issue for imbalanced masculine energy than it is for feminine. The masculine is meant to be the protector, the safe haven, the provider. And this has been vastly over-emphasized and overdone by modern culture where we weather man or woman, are expected to be unbreakable, to toughen up, to tough it out, to keep the stiff upper lip and never let them see you sweat. And yet we are beginning to hear more and more that asking for help is a good thing and that we should feel comfortable reaching out and asking for what we need. Yet, do we do it? Or do we stop ourselves from reaching out? There's almost this masochistic pride that we take in telling others, now I've got it, I'll handle it.
We think we can't burden others with our shit, pardon my language. And so we stay isolated, overwhelmed, and struggling. Even if our heads are about to go underwater. Just stop for a moment. Stop for a moment and consider this. How do you feel when you are helping others? Why do you feel that way? Now flip it around. How do you feel when others are helping you? Why is there a difference here? Why are most of us perfectly okay helping others but not letting them help us? Well, when we're helping, we feel a bit more like the rescuer, quite literally the helper. It not only feels good to help, but it usually has us feeling good about ourselves. But when we need the help, we can feel like we're now in the role of being rescued. We believe that we're lesser somehow because we couldn't handle it on our own.
And that takes a dig at our identity, our self image, and our strength. And our egos don't like that. Now let me add into this mix, this false westernized myth of the self-made man, or being that ideal image of independence, not needing anyone or anything. These are both a complete farce. There is no such thing as a self-made man or woman and anyone claiming it needs to spend some time on self-awareness as well as some holistic and systems thinking. We cannot be completely independent. This is an interconnected world and we all affect each other. But these myths portrayed throughout media, business, politics, fame, TV, movies, the whole thing. We romanticized the lone cowboy out on the range, the business mogul who started with next to nothing where the celebrity or the athlete that bucked all the odds. And yet we don't tell the parts of their stories that required them to have tremendous help and support throughout their journeys.
But I can promise you this, every single one of them did without exception. I share from this perspective because we have a lot of stories and influences that even though today we may be hearing it's okay to ask for help, to ask for what you need, our minds are still stuck on these repeating loops of images and stories that say you need to be able to figure this out on your own. Because to admit that you need help is weakness. It's burdensome, it makes you appear desperate, and others will not like you or respect you because you have become a burden. This needs to change. We operate better as the proverbial village. My strengths are not yours and your strengths aren't mine, which is why we are stronger when we operate together. But to do that, we've gotta get over this block of asking for help.
So a few more thoughts on this. Number one, when you reject another's help, you are denying them a chance to be happy and feel like they matter and are valued by you. You feel valued and like you matter when you help others, don't you? You feel like you've contributed even if in a small way you enjoy that, yes? Then why deny others that same feeling? Number two, not asking for help is all about ego and a weak one of that, no matter how tough we may make ourselves out to be when we do not ask for help, it's because our egos don't want us to appear weak or inadequate or embarrassed or whatever. Fill in the blank. And yet, do you see the irony of this? It doesn't wanna appear weak, which in fact is weakness. It's an illusion and one that keeps us struggling, isolated and stressed out, trying to juggle it all while looking good and is not real.
The strong ego, or let me more accurately say, the balanced ego has no difficulty in asking for help and doesn't do so from a place of weakness, but from a place of balance and peace. Now, number three, I'm a team sports guy. I played baseball for decades and then later rugby competitively for years. And you know that no one person wins the game. Every player on the field, the pitch, the court needs to work together to achieve what the team sits out to do. And that means helping each other out, having each other's back. Among the many positions I played, I was a pitcher in baseball. I didn't have my best stuff every single time I went to the mound. There were times where I had to do my best, but really rely on my teammates to help me out by stepping up on the field or having a great day at the plate, I needed to rely on them to help me.
And I'll be honest, those wins meant at least as much to me as the ones where I feel like I was at my best because I felt more connected. It was more like a team when it was all about all of us pulling together. So if this is true in sports, why wouldn't it be in life? Well, let's give you another one then. You know also that I'm a nature guy and one of my greatest connections in relations is with the trees. You want to know how nature does things pick up the book, the Hidden Life of Trees by Peter Wohlleben. Trees, their roots, the myecelium are all interconnected into networks. They're called the mycorrhizal networks. It's jokingly called the wood wide web because it's like an internet for trees. Trees communicate to each other about the weather and about pests, but they also communicate to redistribute resources to help trees that are sick or not getting enough water, for instance. They do this because they recognize the forest is stronger when they are all stronger. They literally help each other. They don't mind asking for help. So in sports, asking for help makes sense, in the forest and all throughout wild nature, it makes sense. It works throughout the animal kingdom too. And the last time I checked, human beings are part of nature. We are nature, we're not separate. All right, I digress. I step off my soapbox and simply tell you, give yourself permission to ask for help. You'll be shocked at how good it feels and ask even why did I wait so long? And if you can't give yourself permission, I'm giving you permission now. Allow yourself to ask for help. Life will get easier and we'll all get more connected as well as rise in the process. Now let's get back to our walk with Bob and Brad.
That quote from Paulo Coelho from The Alchemist, which I remember. So I mean I even now it still hits me. Like a ton of bricks when I hear that, right? Because I remember those moments going through the void and, and even a few moments afterwards where I'm like, just insert me back into the matrix. I just wanna know, right? Just pull the wall back over my eyes, I'll go back to the ignorant state. But once you see it, you can't, it's, you're face to face with it.
Bob (00:35:57):
Right. Right. Yeah. And like you know, I'm, I'm out, I'm out seven years and I'm like, oh, that looks really good over there still, you know, oh that safety and that security. Oh, that title and power and you know, like that still looks great to me. But I know that would shrivel, I would shrivel up there if I went there, you know, if I went back. Yeah.
Luke (00:36:16):
Brad, you, you used a phrase, both of you were talking about this before, I think it was Brad, that you had, you had specifically said that you felt like a fish coming back into water when you connected with, with, you know, the men's groups and men's work around you. And I was wondering if you could speak about that in the context of this part of the conversation we're having where that is a container where you can feel held and seen while you're falling through the void. And so I was just wondering if you'd share, cause I mean to me, Bob, you said that others were saying what it was that you had been thinking and I mean, I, I know those experiences of being in those types of rooms or those types of meetings and it's like, I thought I was the only one.
Brad (00:36:54):
Right. Right. Yeah. You know, for me it's so funny and I, I see it with so many men I work with. And it was true for me that, that this unknown space, this void, it's so scary to go into alone because it, it is a place where I lose my sense of identity. It's a place where I become nothing. And when I become nothing I have to let go of everything. And it's so scary to do this alone. So what I found in my transition to men's groups is that I had other men to help guide me. I had other men to hold space for my journey and I could be open and transparent and just, just be in it without being judged, without being told what to do or how to do it. They were just holding space for my journey. And, and that honestly is what allowed me to go into that space and feel safe enough to come out the other side.
So it's true for me and it's what I do with so many men, but it is so vitally important that we do this for each other because I know from personal experience that that for me, I could not have done it alone. There's just no way. It's too scary. So I would easily have gone back to old dysfunctional ways just because my body knows that even though it's dysfunctional. And to springboard back into old ways saying, I'm just gonna be here. This is what life has for me and this is good enough, I quickly found that that isn't good enough for me. I wanted more. And so to be able to do that, with men holding space for me and to have somewhat of a guide in my own journey, really led me to where I am today of I wanna do that for other men. I want to help men transition through this really dark unknown space. And as I talk about this space, I do wanna say one thing that for me, there was huge gifts in being nothing and sitting in this unknown space and just letting go of my ego, letting go of all the masks I wear in life, letting go of everything. And for people to see me of who I really am at my core, crazy, crazy healing. It was amazing to experience that.
Luke (00:39:15):
Having other men be able to hold that space for you and be able to see what you're going through, acknowledge what you're going through, know that you're also not alone in it, allows you to also not fall back on those old tendencies because you've got them not only holding the container for what you're going through right now, but they know the things that you've said you want to commit yourself to, you know, the things that you want to become. And they still hold that bigger vision for you so you feel drawn forward as opposed to falling back in that process. And I think that's, you know, that is really, really important. I also see this, this conundrum that you were just touching on, which is that we start asking this question of who am I? But if we start answering that too soon without going through the nothing phase, we actually are doing ourselves a disservice.
We're holding ourselves back because we answer probably out of some form of preconditioning or what our mind wants to be able to answer. Because oh, now I got certainty again. I can move forward. I can be in life again. And so it wants to grab hold. For me, I had to change the question first from who am I to, what am I, and right. And so then I was able to, to connect this idea of being this energetic being and this energetic being that was connected to so much more than just our human form. And what am I, I am in human form and what am I, I am in male form and masculine form of that human. And so it was kind of like, what is the largest view of what I am I could take? And then almost like step at a time reconnect to, to the next level of, of either essence or truth about who and what I am. So that when I was finally asking the who am I question, it was not being answered from ego. It was being pulled from this very, very different direction. And so I'm, I'm curious, you know, how did you guys find that path? Because I know, man that who am I question and what is my purpose, messed me up good for a while. Like it was, I wanted to answer that one quick and it was, it was actually, I was creating my own limitation by trying to answer too quickly.
Brad (00:41:16):
Well, just as I take this in, I'm kind of laughing because I'm saying to myself, I'm kind of still in it.
Bob (00:41:25):
Yeah. Same.
Luke (00:41:26):
We will be.
Brad (00:41:28):
I mean, I mean I don't know that it ever truly gets answered, but it is the journey of discovery and to be open to discovery. And I know now in my world, my peripherals are way more open than they were earlier. So I'm able to take in more, I'm able to take in more information and to assimilate that information in my body. I just have this ability to do it more than I ever have. And so I'm grateful for that. Right. I'm grateful for the ability to do that. You said something earlier that I just wanna touch on. Cause I think it's important and very relevant that to have people to hold me in the highest light and to hold me in new ways is so remarkably important. Because even those that were close to me, and I see this all the time, my family even out of love, they often would hold me in old ways because that's what they're comfortable with. That's how they know me. And so going through very, very transformative processes and then going back into my old environment, I'm still holding in, held in an old way. And so it's just an important distinction that as we change as men, we need each other to hold ourselves in, in the highest light possible. And we do this through men's groups, we do this through coaching, through therapy, through all sorts of modalities.
Luke (00:42:53):
Yeah. Bob, want to wanna just kind of give that space back to you as well of, you know, hearing this conversation, hearing the, who am I, what am I, the purpose question. I'm curious about your reaction to some of that. Cause I know it's very part and parcel to the work that, that you're doing as well. But like I said, there was a time that, that those questions really messed me up for a bit. At times, like you said, and at times still do.
Bob (00:43:16):
Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. Brad nailed it. Right? It's like I'm still in that space and the thing I've found probably within like those last year or so is how much that conversation of what am I, who am I, why am I here, is impacted by my healing process. Like healing through some of the, the traumas and experiences I've had in my own life. And like we've all had them, like we've all had some traumatic experience in life. It's part of being human and you know, I've really saw opportunity there. Like primarily when I became a father, I have a two year old son. And, um, I noticed that my relationship with him was getting impacted from some, not to sound dramatic, like some darkness that was still inside of me or something that wasn't, hasn't some energetic thing that hasn't moved through me, right? Or moved out of me. And, and it really had me start to focus on what needs to be healed so you can step into this next level or you can like, you know, follow this next evolution of who you get to be as a, as a man, as a father, as a leader, as a husband, as a human being. And, and for me, you know, that, so that whole thing was driven by spirit. You know, really connecting to my connection to higher power, my connection to, I mean, what I choose to call God, but it's really like, where is this next evolution relationship with spirit that's gonna help guide me through all this, you know, help me have the faith that regardless of whatever happens, I'm gonna be okay. I'm gonna be held, right, I'm gonna be safe. And I really feel like that's been an instrumental part of, of my experience and my, you know, my journey into that, that great unknown of like, who am I now, you know, who, what's next for me? Right.
Luke (00:44:56):
Yeah. I wanna ask a little bit about this, this piece. Because we both, we've all, three of us have, have, have mentioned this maybe me, not directly, but I have on past shows. But just before I do, I want everybody to pay attention to the fact that as we're talking about these experiences of the transformations and, and this journey that we've been on, we're using words as such as being held, being seen, feeling safe. It's different vernacular than we're used to hearing about what it is that men actually are looking for and asking for and needing as part of their evolutionary journeys. And so I just wanna point out, just continue to pay attention to some of the language because we will talk about, do wanna ask you guys about some new stuff, new paradigm kind of stuff for, for masculinity. But the space that you described with it being in relationship to your son Brad, your children, and then specifically for me, I also, I, I mean I, I remember those phases when I was going through the crux of all of this and I was approaching burnout.
I was totally stressed. I was juggling all the things. And the only safe place that I could show any emotion felt like being at home. And that's the last people I wanted to take it out on. But it just leaks out, it seeps out. You're frustrated, you're aggravated, your nerves are afraid and it comes out in, in ways you don't want it to, to be. And there were so many things, and I I, you know, I look at, at my, my son in particular, I've got a daughter and a son and I look at my son who's the younger one in particular. And I mean, I could tell that it's like I, I'm trying to be either more directive or I'm trying to steer you because this is the way that we're meant to grow up and this is the way that we're supposed to think about things.
And all of these just ridiculous old paradigms of how we do things. And I needed to ultimately connect to this realization. And I, again, for some this may seem fundamental, it's simple, difficult to master, was that it was not remotely my job to raise him that way. Meaning it was not my job to figure things out for him to help guide him in certain directions. It wasn't meant to lead in that way. And to use this phrase that keeps coming back and this call and many others, it was my job to hold the space to create a container of safety so that he could feel the ability to connect to himself. And we're, I mean my son's just now a teenager. We got a long way to go. My son, my daughter's older and same thing is, it was a very, very different role that I was meant to play than what we think of as, you know, fathering from, from decades past generations past.
And so I'm just kinda curious that for me, I mean, it, it was a slap in the face at times for me. Every once in a while, having a like an exchange to my son and walking out of the room and going, that's not who I wanna be. That's, nope, that's, something's gotta change. And that, thank God, was one of the drivers for reconnecting me to the path that, that I've gone on. So I'm just curious how, how that was for you as well, for both of you. I mean, you've alluded to both of it, but I'd love to hear just a little bit more. Cause I think that relationship and the way that we look at fathering is also something that is changing quite substantially right now.
Bob (00:47:53):
Yeah. I'll, I'll jump in. I, I know my, like I shared my son, he is a little over two and one of his primary forms of communication at this point is, is crying. Right. Like, he doesn't have much other ways to communicate with me or, you know, with my wife and I, and, and I was noticing how triggered and how activated I would get around his crying. And, and my wife noticed it too. She's like, why do you get so taken out when he's, he's crying or upset. Like he's, this is just what toddlers do. And I was like, but you don't understand. And, and it took me a long time to realize what was actually happening for me in that experience. And it was, you know, I didn't have that space to be held or to cry. Right. Like, crying was fixed right up or I'll give you something to cry about.
Right. That, that fun saying. But what I, what I noticed is like, my inner child was like angry because how does he get to get away with this? How does my son get to get away with crying like this? And it was like a like, you know, hard explosion, brain explosion. And I got to share that with my wife because it was causing conflict in our, in our, in our marriage. Right. Like how I was being with him. And, and he's, I joke, he's like my greatest coach. He's my greatest me, he's my greatest teacher, you know, so what I got to learn to do is just like, just be with him and literally just hold space for him. Get down on his level and just be with him while he cries. There's nothing to fix, there's nothing to make go away. Right. And it was a huge like, nervous system reset for me to get there. But I needed that level of awareness and connection to what was actually going on internally with me before I can actually make an outward change in behavior and feeling and thinking.
Luke (00:49:36):
Yeah. It's interesting. We had, I had a previous interview and he might remember the episode of, of men being vulnerable. And it was actually, it was, it was a couple of gentlemen that joined me from the EVRYMAN group that I had been through myself. And I remember one of the stories in there that Alex had shared around his very first men's circle that he was part of and having the man next to him completely break down crying and sobbing and how unbelievably uncomfortable he got in that moment. And that it, it's just like, he's like, what do we do? I, I'm not sure I can handle this. And then to look around the room with men who had already been in that group saying, yeah, more of that. Stay there, do that, feel that. And he's like, I have no idea what to do here.
Right. And I, I think of, of what that does and maybe, maybe Brad, you could just shed a little light just from your background of when we can sit through those moments, how fast our nervous system starts to rework itself to be able to handle those bigger emotions in those bigger states. And I, because you know, Brad, I know from, from your Somatic work and, and you know, the work that you do in inside of the men's groups and everything else, when we can more fully experience and process our emotions, something that we have not necessarily had the space to do growing up, all of a sudden there's this rewiring that starts inside of our nervous system. And if that can be acknowledged, if that can be supported, the shift that that creates in our lives and our relationships, it's just unreal.
Brad (00:51:03):
Absolutely. It's what I call leaning in and, and it's, it really is a process of leaning into the uncomfortable or even leaning into the, to what we have disconnected from even as children. So, you know, we often talk about fight, flight, and freeze as defensive responses as kids, normally the fight and flight don't work too well. And so we end up going into a disconnected freeze response when things get too overwhelming. And as children they get overwhelming very quickly. And so what happens as we get older and as we go into environments like men's groups, we come face to face with those disconnected parts of us. And those disconnected parts of us can be triggering because it reminds us of these old ways that were really overwhelming. And so it's a remarkable process of leaning into that within a contained environment. Right. And just having the support and having the safety.
We talk about safety of actually just being with it. And you're right. When we do that, our nervous systems tend to rewire very quickly because we lean into it. Our natural tendency is to avoid it. Our natural tendency is to not go there because it, it does feel painful. So as you talk about that level of rewiring, right, as our nervous systems kind of correct themselves, it doesn't take a lot, but it does take a lot of containment in order for that to happen. Right. And so, yeah, and I would say this as we, as we open up the conversation about parenting, that for me there's a huge difference between a dad and a father. And it's important to notice what that differentiation might be. Like when my kids were young, I was an awesome dad. I was a soccer coach. I would wrestle with them every night. I was an awesome dad. Taught them how to ski, taught them how to surf. I mean, I was the dad, but it took me a while to learn how to be a father.
And so as we bring up this conversation, being a father is so sacred and precious to me. And in a way that's what my children really need of me. They don't need a friend from me. They need me to be a father. And it took me a while to figure that out. And it took me some space to lean into that. And part of it was I never had that growing up. Right. I never had that modeling myself. So I had to really learn it and relearn it. So just as we talk about parenting and fatherhood, it's something that's very precious to me. And I actually have a course called The Sole Initiation of Fatherhood of how being a father was part of my own initiation.
Luke (00:53:55):
Speak to just for a moment, because I, I'd love to hear, I'd love the distinction you're making there about being a dad and being a father. Describe to me what you see as the energy of being a father, because I think that that opens us up also this conversation around this kind of newer paradigm that we're beginning to understand about masculinity.
Brad (00:54:14):
Yeah. And I think we've touched on this already, but for me, the energy is holding space of being very structured, being very boundaried. And to allow my children to have their complete full experience. To not interrupt that experience. And that is so important because we often interrupt our kids' experience out of love, out of protection. And what happens is they, they don't fully mature, they don't fully complete certain cycles. And so as I hold space and, and, and give them a very safe contained environment, they still are responsible for their own experience. And I might need to pick them up. I, I might need to put a bandaid on a wound, but that's part of it. They learn that way. They mature, they grow that way. And that's what I learned by the time my kids became teenagers, I changed the way I parented. And even today as grown men, they comment on how important that time was for them.
Luke (00:55:22):
That's interesting because even when you create that type of, of container, part of what you're also saying is one, heard you say before, it's okay to feel, Bob, you described it just to be there with your son when he's crying, it's okay. Feel all of that. Feel the experience. Allow that to come all the way through you. And what you're also saying in that process, because I think this is, I've talked about it repeatedly on this show, it's okay to hurt. Meaning, to feel the discomfort, to feel the, the, the hurt of what you're going through. And it's okay to find healthy means of expressing that as opposed to the everything's fine, I've got it, I'll handle that. And bottling everything back up again. And it, it brings us into this realm of, to be more fully expressed. There is this authenticity, this honesty maybe is what I'm going after here. There's this self honesty that we need to have and this way of showing up honestly in our lives with others, that allows us to not only process, but it allows us to get past this false wall of like, oh, you're fine. I'm fine. Let's keep doing our things. We want to, I look at it as, as you know, I, I introduced this as the, those two threads we talked about at the top of the show, of what was going on outside of me, what was going on inside of me. To me, when we can express and, and be honest in these ways, it collapses those because now all of a sudden, at least in that moment of time, what is inside of us and what is outside of us come back into one. And, you know, so I I think it's such an important and fundamental part of this process is the way in which we can be honest with ourselves, and how do we start bringing that into our relationships? Which is why, you know, the the men's work that both of you do and, and, and I've been a part of and everything else is so fundamental is it, it kind of gives you a playground. It gives you that safe container to start to do this stuff. So you can then learn how to do that in other areas of your life.
Brad (00:57:17):
What I really hear you saying, and I agree with it wholeheartedly, is we have to learn how to model that way of being.
Bob (00:57:23):
Yes.
Brad (00:57:24):
We have to learn how to model it. And so we have to do our work in order to be authentic in the way we show up as a father, as the way we show up as a dad, as the way we show up as a husband. Right. We have to do our work in order to do that. And one of the most important pieces for me, for my children to know is just simply, I'm not going anywhere. You can have your experience, but just so you know, I'm not going anywhere. And that level of safety, that level of groundedness is so important for them to feel because it doesn't always exist when they're at school, when they're outside of the home. So for us to provide that as fathers and dads is critical for our children.
Luke (00:58:09):
Yeah, that's interesting. And, and Bob, please just jump in on this one. But what you also described in that, in that sense of, I'm not going anywhere, you're not only creating the safe container, but to me you're also anchoring in a level of trust. Yet again, something very, you know, lacking inside of society right now is that ability to truly, genuinely trust and know what you're relying on. And I see that as such a gateway into our faith. And the strength thing of our faith is, is marrying those two things together. And so to me, I just wanted to call it out beause it, it's something else that I got out of the way. You describe that I'm not going anywhere. I'm gonna hold this for you. I'm gonna anchor this for you so you can do what you need to do and you can always trust you can come back and I will, I will still get that container built around you as you need it.
Bob (00:58:52):
Yeah. And, and I mean, that's the way that we hold, right. Or that that's the way that, that we can hold our children and, and hold ourselves in that process and hold our relation, like hold all of it. And it's, you know, without that foundation of trust, that foundation of safety, knowing that it's okay, however I am here now, that it's a challenge to really settle into, into that experience, you know, and it's, you know, I think some, so much of like who I am as or was or whatever, like was what I learned, right? Was what I learned and so much of who my son gets to be is what he's gonna, what I'm gonna teach him, you know, and what he's gonna learn from me and my desire to really take myself on when I came after I became a father. Cause I saw in the instant the first time I laid my eyes on him and I was like, whoa, this is a whole different game now. You know, like, this is, this is next level everything. And, and so much of my stuff, I, I feel like in that moment healed. And then it's just been an evolution of what that, that looks like. So I can be that, that father, I can be that clean container that, that will hold him and hold us, hold the family in a grounded, loving, present, spiritual way.
Luke (01:00:15):
Hmm. So as, as we start to, uh, kind of wrap up today, there was one thing that came up that, that I wanted to to circle back to. And that's this big word of purpose. Cause I think it is, it's something that as we, you know, shift out of some of the older threads of, of just, you know, the the achievement focus, the providing focus, the that being all that we do, those are important. It can be important, but it needs to be balanced with the rest of who we are. But as we grapple through that, as we evolve through that, there is this question of, well, what is my purpose? And I wanna, I'm intentionally gonna kind of leave this pretty open to see what, what you guys wanna throw in here. But I'm kind of curious of like, what is your understanding of what purpose is at this point? Like when you're talking to your, your clients, you're talking to men or men's groups or what have you, how do you introduce that topic of purpose? What is it, how do you frame it for people to start to relate to perhaps in a slightly more updated way?
Bob (01:01:12):
With the, the men that I work with, we, we frame it up as looking at it like simply maybe your north star or your, your guiding force, the thing that's propel or propelling you towards what's next in your life. And I think the way to discover that is, is in two ways. One is like ask, do you have an idea of what it may be? Right? Start with that question. Do you have a sense of why you're here? Do you have a sense of why you're on the planet at this time in life? Right? And I found that, like, that question gets answered in two different ways. One is that they know it, they were born with it. That they know why they were here. They've maybe lived their life in that way. And I find that's, that's the less response of the two. And the other response is this is, I've discovered it or am discovering it throughout my life, like based on who I've been in my life up until this point, that if we can tie some threads together and tie some themes together, that, that we can start to discover what that is together. And then from there it's, sorry, what does your purpose look like in action? Right? To get it in action to what would be the evidence of your life circumstances or what's going on in your life that would demonstrate to you that you're aligned, that you are, you are aligned, that you are marching towards whatever your purpose is.
Luke (01:02:32):
Brad, how about for you?
Brad (01:02:33):
Yeah, you know, I, I agree with what Bob's saying. Uh, you know, I, I look at purpose in two different ways and the differentiation between what a highest purpose is and maybe a deeper purpose. And so as I, as I think of a higher purpose, I think of this world of possibility and the world of possibility there, you know, as a human being, I have so much access to possibility, to dreaming, to visualize my future and, you know, what do I really want? And what am I capable of in this life? And I think that that's an important realm to go into, to open up and really expand what is possible. So there's a, there's a, there's a higher purpose that is important for me to go to. And as I grab from that, then it kind of funnels into this deeper purpose. And what Bob's talking about is to really balance it against what is in true alignment with my truest self, my deepest self.
And so to do both right, to do both to fish what I want out of this expanded possible reality, and then to have it funnel into what out of that is in true alignment with my deepest self. And then when I act accordingly, when I act in alignment with my highest purpose or my deepest purpose, then I feel in alignment, I feel power, I feel flow. There's so much that is available to me in that moment. To me, that sensation, that feeling is living on purpose. And it's a journey. Like we, we mentioned before, it's not that I'll ever arrive, but as long as I can maintain that space and feel that I am in alignment with who I am and who I want to be in this world, then I'm doing a good job of being human and I'm doing a good job of just being me.
Luke (01:04:26):
I love that you both kind of tied it back to, to that essence and then the way you frame that Brad around that deeper purpose that's within there because it, it frames to me sort of the way that I, I've really been working and, and looking at this right now as well, is that this purpose, it has the being component and the doing component, right? And what you were just speaking to is that being component. And it's for us to really truly be the truth, the essence of what we are, you know, I love somebody has referred to it as a soul print, right? Just like our fingerprint. There's a soul print, there's a uniqueness of, of who we are and why are we in this incarnation? And the more and more that we can get in touch with that, that's the being component.
And one of those, those questions that I've thrown out to clients before is even to just start to ask yourself things like, you know, what are the, the gifts, the qualities that make me who I am that have nothing to do with work, have nothing to do with doing anything, nothing to do with making a living. Like if you take all that off, what are the qualities, the gifts, the strengths that remain? Because now you're getting closer, like to peeling into what is the essence of, of who you are. And then, as you guys said, is, okay, so now, now there's multiple avenues, there's multiple vehicles that can carry that purpose, meaning carry that essence into the world. We'll call that the doing. And so now it's, it's what creates that, that alignment that carries that out into the world in a way that feels good.
It feels like it's not work. It feels like it's whatever it's meant to be. Because some, a lot of purpose has nothing to do with work, it's just the way that we show up and interact with the world from that deepest part of who we are. Let me just, before we wrap up, just kind of ask for any further, you know, kind of closing thoughts. We have talked about, you know, kind of how do we close these, these different avenues, these different threads of the old world into new, the outer, into the inner. We've talked about the way in which masculinity is really beginning to transform, can transform through this evolutionary sort of stage that we're in right now. In when we feel our emotions, when we go into this space, when we allow the container to get held. We've obviously just been talking about purpose and how all of this starts to tie together. And so, uh, just before I close this off, I'd love to just see if there are any kind of closing thoughts, closing comments that both of you would love to make.
Bob (01:06:40):
For me, it's, it's, it's to lead by example, right? It's to lead, it's to, to show what's possible by allowing your humanity, by allowing the full spectrum of masculine feminine rise up within, within you and what's possible there. And ask for help. You know, if, if you know something is not where it needs to be, whether within yourself, your relationships, your career, your experience of life, your parenting, you don't have to go it alone. And that was one of the hardest lessons that I always, I had to learn to the point where I almost lost my life because of it. But asking for help is not a sign of weakness. You can be extremely successful, talented, and capable and still need help. I mean, that's, that's the human condition. So yeah.
Brad (01:07:25):
And just to dovetail on what Bob's saying, I mean, it's true for me, and I see this with so many men that we have ingrained in this culture, this rugged individualism. I can do it on my own. And what I know in my heart and what I feel in my gut is that we need each other for our, for our soul's growth, for our initiation to become better human beings. We really do. We need to hold space for each other in ways that our fathers never experienced. Our grandfathers never experienced, you know, there's a family lineage for all of us that probably never had this degree of containment and holding. And that's what we're creating for each other. That's what we have available now. And so all I can say to anybody listening is the hardest piece of this is just to walk in the door. Just to walk in the door. But once you're in the door and once you feel held and you feel the level of safety that is possible, it opens up a world that is just so magical and so available that I just really wanna invite everybody to step into the space.
Bob (01:08:34):
Yeah. Your brothers will take care of you.
Brad (01:08:37):
Absolutely right.
Luke (01:08:39):
And speaking of which, brothers, Brad, I wanna thank you both for going on this walk with me, with us. I've greatly appreciated all of the insights, the experiences, the stories, the realness, the honesty from both of you and from the path that you have traveled. And I also very much deeply appreciate the work that you're doing in the world. So I wanna thank you for being here and going on this walk.
Bob (01:09:00):
Likewise.
Brad (01:09:00):
Thank you so much. So great to be with both of you.
Luke (01:09:05):
Thank you for joining me for this episode of On This Walk. Before signing off, please subscribe to the show and don't miss a single episode. Also, please rate and review us. This helps me greatly in getting the word out about this show. And remember, this is just the start of our conversation. To keep it going, ask questions, add your own thoughts, join the ongoing conversation by just heading over to onthiswalk.com and click on Community in the upper right hand corner. It's free to join. Until we go on this walk again, I'm Luke Iorio. Be well.